Habololy Forum
Habololy Concepts => Domain => Topic started by: Asinjin on February 17, 2012, 11:36:33 PM
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I don't see any spell on the list that I think necessarily need to stay if we change it. I am thinking more spells like Mass Status, Ramparts, and spells that are used in a war.
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You could include a divination spell such as augury to assist with strategy.
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1st - ??
2nd - Battle Line
3rd - Terra Cotta Warrior
4th - War Cry OR Battlefield Fortification
5th - Drums of War
6th - Consecrate / Desecrate Battlefield
7th - Animate Siege Weapon
8th - ???
9th - ???
Thoughts?
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1/2 Mass Camouflage OR Tactical Precision
2 the other of the first two
3 Mass Conviction or Battle Hymn
4 Legion's Aid
5 Mass Longstride
6 Righteous Wrath of the Faithful
7 Wrack the Earth
8 Shadow Battlefield (as the 9th lvl Druid Spell Sh Landscape)
9 Storm of Vengance
Needs a good personal power as many of these spells don't affect the caster.
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I forgot to mention: when i used the Tools site all of the Eberon pages came up empty. I was searching by rulebook. All the lists I have posted therefore were made without considering those spells. If you see some that look good feel free to chime in. I also only gave OA a cursory look.
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1 Mass Camouflage OR Tactical Precision
2 (the other of the first two) OR Battle Line (CoR)
3 Mass Conviction OR Battle Hymn OR Stand Firm (tFoW)
4 Legion's Aid OR Warcry (CA) OR Battlefield Fortification
5 Drums of War (HoB)
6 Righteous Wrath of the Faithful OR Consecrate / Desecrate Battlefield (HoB)
7 Wrack the Earth OR Animate Siege Weapon
8 Shadow Battlefield (as the 9th lvl Druid Spell Sh Landscape) OR Tides of Battle (MoR)
9 Storm of Vengance
This is Dedestroyt's other domain and an overall important one. Lots of choices, lots of votes needed.
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1 Mass Camouflage OR Tactical Precision
2 (the other of the first two) OR Battle Line (CoR)
3 Mass Conviction OR Battle Hymn OR Stand Firm (tFoW)
4 Legion's Aid OR Warcry (CA) OR Battlefield Fortification
5 Drums of War (HoB)
6 Righteous Wrath of the Faithful OR Consecrate / Desecrate Battlefield (HoB)
7 Wrack the Earth OR Animate Siege Weapon
8 Shadow Battlefield (as the 9th lvl Druid Spell Sh Landscape) OR Tides of Battle (MoR)
9 Storm of Vengance
This is Dedestroyt's other domain and an overall important one. Lots of choices, lots of votes needed.
I'm doing this from memory but here are my arguments: Animate Siege Engine is lousy, particularly for a 7th level spell, C/D Battlefield applies after the battle is over and Battlefield Fortification is weaker and less often usable than either of the other two.
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1 Mass Camouflage OR Tactical Precision
2 (the other of the first two) OR Battle Line (CoR)
3 Mass Conviction OR Battle Hymn OR Stand Firm (tFoW)
4 Legion's Aid OR Warcry (CA) OR Battlefield Fortification
5 Drums of War (HoB)
6 Righteous Wrath of the Faithful OR Consecrate / Desecrate Battlefield (HoB)
7 Wrack the Earth OR Animate Siege Weapon
8 Shadow Battlefield (as the 9th lvl Druid Spell Sh Landscape) OR Tides of Battle (MoR)
9 Storm of Vengance
This is Dedestroyt's other domain and an overall important one. Lots of choices, lots of votes needed.
My votes are: both of the first as 1 and 2, Mass Conviction (the other two are terrible), Warcry, RWF, Wrack the Earth, and both the eighth, one as 8 and other as 9.
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Other opinions?
Also need the domain ability.
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Power: All domain spells and spells cast with the war or battle descriptor add a +2 DC. In addition, all skill checks involving military tactics or battle strategy add +2 (Knowledge: Military Tactics, Knowledge: Warfare, Diplomacy, and Intimidate).
1 - Battle Lines
2 - Mass Camouflage
3 - Mass Conviction
4 - Warcry
5 - Drums of War
6 - Righteous Wrath of the Faithful
7 - Wrack Earth
8 - Shadow Battlefield
9 - Storm of Vengeance
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The problem with that granted power is that the number of clerical spells with the war or battle descriptor is so small that I think it would not get used often enough.
Still need more votes on the spell choices.
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Battle line seems fine for 2nd. Mass Camouflage is a 4the spell and Tactical Precision is a 2nd level spell so not sure why they are options for the 1st level spell slot. I can't seem to find any of the spells in the 3rd level slot. 4th level I can't seem to find legion's aid or battlefield fortification. I don't like warcry. 6th I like Righteous Wrath of the Faithful. For 7th I like animate siege weapon. I can't find the spells for 8th either
1 Mass Camouflage OR Tactical Precision
2 (the other of the first two) OR Battle Line (CoR)
3 Mass Conviction OR Battle Hymn OR Stand Firm (tFoW)
4 Legion's Aid OR Warcry (CA) OR Battlefield Fortification
5 Drums of War (HoB)
6 Righteous Wrath of the Faithful OR Consecrate / Desecrate Battlefield (HoB)
7 Wrack the Earth OR Animate Siege Weapon
8 Shadow Battlefield (as the 9th lvl Druid Spell Sh Landscape) OR Tides of Battle (MoR)
9 Storm of Vengance
This is Dedestroyt's other domain and an overall important one. Lots of choices, lots of votes needed.
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1 Tactical Precision
2 Battle Line (CoR)
3 Mass Conviction OR Battle Hymn OR Stand Firm (tFoW)
4 Warcry (CA) OR Battlefield Fortification
5 Drums of War (HoB)
6 Righteous Wrath of the Faithful
7 Animate Siege Weapon
8 Wrack the Earth
9 Tides of Battle (MoR)
Note that we are talking about the Complete Adventurer version of Warcry, there are four versions.
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Note that we are talking about the Complete Adventurer version of Warcry, there are four versions.
I like that version
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Here's a thought...what about not having a specific granted ability (or maybe allowing the +2 DC to domain spells), and allowing a cleric who chooses the war domain to be able to choose two spells per cleric level as their bonus spells? I don't mean they get two bonus spells per day, but instead they can choose one of two spells per spell level on the list. This might also help the spell selection process as it would allow for more options.
1 - Battle Lines and Tactical Precision
2 - Mass Camouflage and Battle Hymn
3 - Mass Conviction and Stand Firm
4 - Warcry and Battlefield Fortification
5 - Drums of War and Battletide (Player's Guide to Faerûn)
6 - Righteous Wrath of the Faithful and Consecrate/Desecrate Battlefield
7 - Wrack Earth and Animate Siege Weapon
8 - Shadow Battlefield and City's Might (Races of Destiny)
9 - Storm of Vengeance and Tides of Battle
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Battle line seems fine for 2nd. Mass Camouflage is a 4the spell and Tactical Precision is a 2nd level spell so not sure why they are options for the 1st level spell slot. I can't seem to find any of the spells in the 3rd level slot. 4th level I can't seem to find legion's aid or battlefield fortification. I don't like warcry. 6th I like Righteous Wrath of the Faithful. For 7th I like animate siege weapon. I can't find the spells for 8th either
Clearly we have very different taste in spells. Battleline is an Evil spell. Warcry I think is one of the best and Animate Siege Weapon is useless.
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That is an interesting idea for a granted power, any thoughts?
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Clearly we have very different taste in spells. Battleline is an Evil spell. Warcry I think is one of the best and Animate Siege Weapon is useless.
I think our assessments are closer then you think. I will explain further. First you missed one of my post. I was reading the wrong war cry. I like the one you want to use and agree it is one of the better choices. I didn't particular like battle line but there didn't seem to be other choices. Some of the spells being suggested for low levels were at the wrong level. I also didn't know it was evil. So I would be fine getting rid of battle line. Again I agree with your assessment of Animate siege weapon. I think it is pretty useless. I think we could do better. However, the other spell wrack the earth although a better spell doesn't seem to fit at all. It is just an elemental earth spell to me.
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That is an interesting idea for a granted power, any thoughts?
while its interesting I have two issues with it: it's very powerful and if the rest of you disagree, I don't think it fits for war. Would be a better fit for a chaos type domain, mischief, transformation etc.
Power: as a free action expend a turn attempt to increase your base attack to equal your total level for a number of rounds equal to your charisma modifier.
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1 Tactical Precision
2 Battle Hymn (SpC)
3 Mass Conviction OR Stand Firm (tFoW)
4 Warcry (CA)
5 Drums of War (HoB)
6 Righteous Wrath of the Faithful
7 Consecrate / Desecrate Battlefield
8 City's Might (RoD)
9 Tides of Battle (MoR)
Thoughts?
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while its interesting I have two issues with it: it's very powerful and if the rest of you disagree, I don't think it fits for war. Would be a better fit for a chaos type domain, mischief, transformation etc.
Power: as a free action expend a turn attempt to increase your base attack to equal your total level for a number of rounds equal to your charisma modifier.
I like the power, but I would disconnect it from Turn Attempt and Charisma modifier. I would make it what we are trying to use as a standard which is once + once per three cleric levels per day. That is what we are going to use for the number of Strength domain uses and other domain uses that are too powerful for once per cleric level.
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Ok on the power. I HATE consecrate/desecrate battlefield.
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1 Tactical Precision
2 Battle Hymn (SpC)
3 Mass Conviction OR Stand Firm (tFoW)
4 Warcry (CA)
5 Drums of War (HoB)
6 Greater Status OR Vigorous Circle
7 Righteous Wrath of the Faithful
8 City's Might (RoD)
9 Tides of Battle (MoR)
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Mass Conviction, Vigorous Circle. What does City Might do?
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Components: V, S,
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 20 ft.
Target: One creature/two levels, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration: 10 rounds + 1 round/level (max 40 rounds)
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
You invoke healing energy over a group of creatures, granting each the fast healing ability for the duration of the spell.
Each subject heals 3 hit points per round of such damage until the spell ends and is automatically stabilized if he or she begins dying from hit point loss during that time.
Mass lesser vigor does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation, nor does it allow a creature to regrow or attach lost body parts.
The effects of multiple vigor spells do not stack; only the highest-level effect applies.
Applying a second vigor spell of equal level extends the first spell's duration by the full duration of the second spell.
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Mass Conviction is Legion's Conviction.
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Components: V, S, M, DF,
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/level; see text
You draw upon a city and its inhabitants for additional strength.
You gain an enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution, as well as damage reduction, based on the size of the community you are in (see page 137 of the Dungeon Master's Guide).
If you are not within 100 feet of a community when the spell is cast, the spell has no effect.
If you move more than 100 feet from the community before the duration elapses, the spell's effect ends immediately.
For example, you could retain the effect while adventuring within the city's sewers, but heading to a dungeon a mile away would end the effect.
Material Component: A chip of city stone or brick.
Fits as a spell used to defend a population center.
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I like Shadow Battlefield better than City Might but I like City Might as well. If people like it better than RWF we could move it down a level. Tide of Battle is pretty similar to RWF so it would not be a huge loss. Otherwise I would go RWF, Shadow Battlefield, Tide.
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Let us vote on Shadow Battlefield vs City's Might.
I will start by voting for City's Might, mainly because I don't like to adjust the spell to fit our needs. Other votes?
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Let us vote on Shadow Battlefield vs City's Might.
I will start by voting for City's Might, mainly because I don't like to adjust the spell to fit our needs. Other votes?
Just in case anyone is unclear, Shadow Battlefield is actually Shadow Landscape. I think it's a better spell than City Might because CM is caster only where most of our spells in this domain aid a fighting force in some way.
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Shadow landscape would be absolutely perfect if it wasn't a shadow spell. That being said, I still vote for it.
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2-1 for Shadow Landscape
How about some other voters?
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Even though I originally suggested City's Might, I think I like Shadow Landscape better for the 8th level slot. City's Might would make a great lower level spell but that would be up to the group to decide and the DM to approve.
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1 Tactical Precision
2 Battle Hymn (SpC)
3 Stand Firm (tFoW)
4 Warcry (CA)
5 Drums of War (HoB)
6 Vigorous Circle
7 Righteous Wrath of the Faithful
8 Shadow Landscape
9 Tides of Battle (MoR)
How does that look?
We still need a granted power for this domain.
The last suggestion was a BAB increase. Does everyone think that is strong enough? With the very common Divine Power spell, would it be useful once the cleric got to that level of spell?
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I think the power wouldn't be that good once the cleric got divine power. Also I think we have differentiate the war domain to focus less on the individual so I think we should come up with something other then a BAB increase. Maybe they give moral bonuses to troops on the battlefield or keep them from feeling.
I just thought of this one as I was typing. Maybe we can have a BAB increase but you can base it on the number of allies they have with them or the number of people fighting in their unit. Then give them some other minor ability that is always active. Maybe the ability to determine how powerful their opponent is. They could look at their enemies leader and figure out class and approximate level. Anyway just some ideas I figured I would throw out their.
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Wars are ultimately won or lost by warriors so I think the power should be personal to the cleric. The courage and leadership abilities already cover inspiring and leading troops. Without going back through all the domain abilities I suspect there are more than a few that mimic and/or can be made unnecessary by a spell to which the cleric has access.
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I don't think there are many at all that mimic a spell.
Looking at the list, so far I'd say five come close, out of 52.
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I didn't really mean mimic a spell, although I think there are more than five, rather an ability that a spell can make irrelevant. Putting that aside how about Cleave and Great Cleave or Cleave and Combat Reflexes.
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I like the cleave idea because it is individual power that works well in a war situation. I think you need to write this one down because Whitesword and I actually agree on something ;)
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There have been plenty of other times we agreed.
Alright at least three.
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I like the Cleave idea will work
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Granted Power: The cleric gains the Cleave feat, even if he does meet the prerequisites for the feat. In addition, he may make a number of Cleave attacks per round equal to one plus one per four cleric levels. If he gains the Combat Reflexes feat, he may take the better result of the number from this ability or the Combat Reflexes feat.
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That sounds good.
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Unless anyone has any objections to spells or power, I will lock this tough one tomorrow.
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Granted Power: The cleric gains the Cleave feat, even if he does meet the prerequisites for the feat. In addition, he may make a number of Cleave attacks per round equal to one plus one per four cleric levels. If he gains the Combat Reflexes feat, he may take the better result of the number from this ability or the Combat Reflexes feat.
I'm a little confused by this. Why not just give them Great Cleave? Or would that be a devotee enhancement?
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I thought the Great Cleave was limited to your number of AoO, in which case giving it to the cleric may not help, since their Dex could be low. But upon review, it doesn't say Great Cleave uses up AoO. I thought it did. Any thoughts on that?
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I thought the Great Cleave was limited to your number of AoO, in which case giving it to the cleric may not help, since their Dex could be low. But upon review, it doesn't say Great Cleave uses up AoO. I thought it did. Any thoughts on that?
That's where I thought you were going. Cleave attacks are not AoO. We went through that when we were working on the Bladelord before the summer Suian. It's (was) on the WoC QA site.
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So then, I suppose we just give the Cleave and Great Cleave without needing the prereq's.
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So then, I suppose we just give the Cleave and Great Cleave without needing the prereq's.
I think giving cleave and great cleave for free might be too much. However, having trouble thinking of a way to tweak it to make it less powerful with the same overall feel.
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I think giving cleave and great cleave for free might be too much. However, having trouble thinking of a way to tweak it to make it less powerful with the same overall feel.
I considered the following options: power attack and cleave or C and GC with it only applying when using the Power's favored weapon.
I went with C and GC because they are situational, i.e. can only be used against multiple enemies, vs PA which can be used all the time.
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So then, I suppose we just give the Cleave and Great Cleave without needing the prereq's.
Maybe only when using the deities favored weapon. Which is a minor penalty because most clerics use that anyway. Which deities get war? That should help us decide.
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Dedestroyt - S Great Sword
Han~Sui - Katana
Stasis (possibly) - Bastard Sword
Quasi deities
Kallark and ALarault
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I think only being used with deities favored weapon would be a good penalty. However, I am still worried that this might be too powerful. Maybe others can weigh in on it and think of weighs to down power it a bit.
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What about keeping the number limitation that I had put in?
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Maybe we put your # limitation in and then have it be used by any weapon.
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It's only a standard feat. If you don't want to give them both give them PA and C instead. Giving them the limited number forces them to take GC later for basically no value except as a prerequisite for other feats. Can anyone think of an occasion where a character got more than three extra cleave attacks in one round? You just can't be surrounded by that many enemies
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There are instances: reach weapon, larger than opponents; but they are not common. I don't assume that with Cleave / ~Great Cleave~ for free they would go down that feat tree. I think its a good ability unless that happen to want to go heavy fighting and take PA and want feats beyond GC, which I think will be a significant minority of clerics.
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There are instances: reach weapon, larger than opponents; but they are not common. I don't assume that with Cleave / ~Great Cleave~ for free they would go down that feat tree. I think its a good ability unless that happen to want to go heavy fighting and take PA and want feats beyond GC, which I think will be a significant minority of clerics.
That is what I was thinking too.
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Except these are clerics of war. But more importantly why modify one of the basic feats? If two feats for free at first level is too much give them Cleave and a skill bonus.
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I think that even among clerics of War, it would be a small minority that go down that feat tree. With Divine feats being useful and a lack of feats in general.
We could move to Cleave and a skill bonus, but I think the modified Great Cleave is neater than a skill bonus.
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It's not really too much to have both feats at 1st when you really think about it. Cleave is only useful if you fell an opponent. You then get the extra attack to take another shot. If you happen to kill another opponent and actually use Great Cleave, more power to you, but it's unlikely that these feats could be abused that early on with such a low BAB. Not only that, but Asinjin makes a good point that few Clerics would go down that feat tree. Even if they do, they still need the prerequisites for those additional feats regardless.
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I think that even among clerics of War, it would be a small minority that go down that feat tree. With Divine feats being useful and a lack of feats in general.
We could move to Cleave and a skill bonus, but I think the modified Great Cleave is neater than a skill bonus.
I agree with this too. I might not need to post anymore on this DM is wording much better then I could.
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Another reason that I think it is better to do the modified great cleave other then I think it is overpowered to just give give the feats is because I don't believe a cleric, even one of the war, should be as good or better then I fighter in this aspect of fighting without at least spending his own feats or skill points etc. I think having a power that mimics great cleave but that comes from the deities and can only be in effect for a limited period of times is more representative of a cleric fighting ability and how his power comes from his deity.
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Just give them Cleave and the skill bonus.
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I think we should vote between the modified great cleave and cleave and a skill bonus.
I vote for modified great cleave because just cleave in a war situation doesn't show the power of a deity of war.
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I also vote for Cleave and modified great cleave.
Other votes?
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I also vote for Cleave and modified great cleave.
Other votes?
Agreed
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Agreed
ditto
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That's 4-1.
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1 Tactical Precision
2 Battle Hymn (SpC)
3 Stand Firm (tFoW)
4 Warcry (CA)
5 Drums of War (HoB)
6 Vigorous Circle
7 Righteous Wrath of the Faithful
8 Shadow Landscape
9 Tides of Battle (MoR)
Granted Power: Cleave and modified Great Cleave.
Locked tomorrow unless anyone has an objection.
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1 Tactical Precision
2 Battle Hymn (SpC)
3 Stand Firm (tFoW)
4 Warcry (CA)
5 Drums of War (HoB)
6 Vigorous Circle
7 Righteous Wrath of the Faithful
8 Shadow Landscape
9 Tides of Battle (MoR)
Granted Power: Cleave and modified Great Cleave.
Locked tomorrow unless anyone has an objection.
The voting on Legion's Conviction vs Stand Firm got overrun by the other discussion. At the time it was 1-0 for Legion's (mass) conviction
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Thank you, I vote for Stand Firm, so its 1-1. Other votes please.
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I vote for Mass Conviction. Also, would you be able to explain how exactly the modified Great Cleave is going to work? If Ikraam goes with this domain, it may change the way I have his feats laid out.
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The granted power is Cleave and an ability that mimics Great Cleave, although there is a limit to the number of 'cleaves' per round. Great Cleave the feat has no limit.
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mass conviction
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The granted power is Cleave and an ability that mimics Great Cleave, although there is a limit to the number of 'cleaves' per round. Great Cleave the feat has no limit.
And we were also going to limit the # of time you can actually use the modified great cleave not just the # of cleaves in a round.
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I don't think that is necessary. How many rounds would it actually come up in a day?
Looks like Mass Conviction wins the vote.
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1 Tactical Precision
2 Battle Hymn (SpC)
3 Mass Conviction
4 Warcry (CA)
5 Drums of War (HoB)
6 Vigorous Circle
7 Righteous Wrath of the Faithful
8 Shadow Landscape
9 Tides of Battle (MoR)
Granted Power: Cleave and modified Great Cleave.
Locked tomorrow unless anyone has an objection.