Habololy Forum

Habololy Books => Magic of Habololy => Topic started by: Asinjin on July 24, 2024, 11:01:09 AM

Title: Spellbooks as Scrolls
Post by: Asinjin on July 24, 2024, 11:01:09 AM

In 2nd ed we had a rule where a wizard could read a spell as scroll from his spellboook.  When he did, there was a 50% chance the pages disappeared.  Not the words, but the pages as well.

It came up in session last night for the first time in a while, so bringing it up here.

Title: Re: Spellbooks as Scrolls
Post by: Windblade on July 25, 2024, 03:18:26 PM

I personally think the rule should disappear but if we need to keep it then it should be a 100% disappear rate instead of 50% disappear rate.  Although at 1st and 2nd level it is cheaper to buy a scroll it quickly becomes cheaper to buy pages in a spell book then to have scrolls one above 3rd level (e.g at 9th level a scroll cost about 4000 gp where a spell book only cost 900 gp).  Even if we do keep it at 100% disappear rate then we need to do something about the price discrepancy.

Title: Re: Spellbooks as Scrolls
Post by: Asinjin on September 19, 2024, 10:00:35 PM

Anyone else have thoughts on this rule?

Title: Re: Spellbooks as Scrolls
Post by: Malchia on September 20, 2024, 07:09:53 AM

I always thought of scrolls as more of a "Magic for Dummies" book series written in simple terms and easy for anyone to read and use in a pinch. On the other hand, I always pictured spellbooks as more complicated arcane shorthand that only Wizards could interpret. Even sorcerers can't learn spells from spellbooks.

I don't like the idea of a Wizard risking losing their spells over a one-time use scenario. It's like having a miniature version of Disjunction happen to your spellbook. If things go south, boom, your spell is vanished from existence. Since you lose the pages, you can't simply rewrite the spell back into your book because now there's no more room unless you haven't used all 100 pages yet.     

Title: Re: Spellbooks as Scrolls
Post by: Hero on October 27, 2024, 10:35:27 PM

I kind of like the idea of a desperate mage burning pages from their spellbook. To keep it sporting, what about introducing a spellcraft check with a high DC to retain the spell?

Title: Re: Spellbooks as Scrolls
Post by: Asinjin on December 04, 2024, 10:55:01 AM

Quote from: Hero on October 27, 2024, 10:35:27 PM

I kind of like the idea of a desperate mage burning pages from their spellbook. To keep it sporting, what about introducing a spellcraft check with a high DC to retain the spell?

After our experience last night, there has to be more risk at reading the pages.  Failed attempts should have a change of the pages being ruined, or a higher chance of a mishap.

Title: Re: Spellbooks as Scrolls
Post by: Hero on December 04, 2024, 09:03:57 PM

Economy of using a spellbook as a scroll vs actual scrolls is wonky. Here’s some math.

SL	CL	Book (GC, XP)	Scroll (GC Buy, GC Craft, XP)
1	1	100, 0	25, 12.5, 1
2	3	200, 0	150, 75, 6
3	5	300, 0	375, 187.5, 15
4	7	400, 0	700, 350, 28
5	9	500, 0	1125, 562.5, 45
6	11	600, 0	1650, 825, 66
7	13	700, 0	2275, 1137.5, 91
8	15	800, 0	3000, 1500, 120
9	17	900, 0	3825, 1912.5, 153
4 (Dim Door)	15 (Izad)	400, 0	1500, 750, 60
2 (Knock)	15 (Izad)	200, 0	750, 375, 30

Title: Re: Spellbooks as Scrolls
Post by: Hero on December 04, 2024, 09:27:00 PM

Assuming min CL for a spell level, it is more cost effective staring at 3rd level spells to burn a page from a book than to buy a scroll. The gap expands as SL goes up. And it’s even more pronounced at higher CLs.

If your spending XP to scribe your own scrolls the inflection point occurs between 4th and 5th. Assuming XP has no value.

XP is really the driver here, I think. Writing a spellbook to cast from is generally cheaper than scrolls and has no XP cost.

Needs to be more of a cost to the caster and should have an inherent chance of failure. Here’s what I’m thinking:

• Pay an XP cost to attempt to cast from a book, regardless of success or failure of subsequent steps. Maybe 25 xp per SL? That would have added up quickly yesterday.
• Make a Spellcraft check DC 20+SL to cast from the book on the fly. Failure by 5 or more burns the page. Failure less than 5 does nothing.
• Make other checks as if casting from a scroll (e.g., CL inadequate, don’t have the ability score, etc.) with typical outcomes.

Title: Re: Spellbooks as Scrolls
Post by: Asinjin on December 04, 2024, 09:55:23 PM

Maybe you can only read from your own spell book?

There is a time factor as well, I think it takes longer to scribe your spellbook than write a scroll.  In addition, the creation of a spellbook is not supposed to be a simple task.  It takes a long time to craft and you would never have one of only a few pages.

Title: Re: Spellbooks as Scrolls
Post by: Asinjin on December 11, 2024, 12:34:22 PM

Quote from: Asinjin on December 04, 2024, 09:55:23 PM

Maybe you can only read from your own spell book?

There is a time factor as well, I think it takes longer to scribe your spellbook than write a scroll.  In addition, the creation of a spellbook is not supposed to be a simple task.  It takes a long time to craft and you would never have one of only a few pages.

Thoughts?

Title: Re: Spellbooks as Scrolls
Post by: Hero on December 11, 2024, 02:42:23 PM

Quote from: Asinjin on December 04, 2024, 09:55:23 PM

Maybe you can only read from your own spell book?

There is a time factor as well, I think it takes longer to scribe your spellbook than write a scroll.  In addition, the creation of a spellbook is not supposed to be a simple task.  It takes a long time to craft and you would never have one of only a few pages.

I still like the idea of an xp tax.

Make the Spellcraft DC higher for a borrowed spellbook.

Generally, in game time is free, so I wouldn’t consider that a cost that offsets xp required to scribe a scroll.

Title: Re: Spellbooks as Scrolls
Post by: Windblade on December 16, 2024, 12:17:38 PM

Quote from: Hero on December 04, 2024, 09:27:00 PM

Assuming min CL for a spell level, it is more cost effective staring at 3rd level spells to burn a page from a book than to buy a scroll. The gap expands as SL goes up. And it’s even more pronounced at higher CLs.

If your spending XP to scribe your own scrolls the inflection point occurs between 4th and 5th. Assuming XP has no value.

XP is really the driver here, I think. Writing a spellbook to cast from is generally cheaper than scrolls and has no XP cost.

Needs to be more of a cost to the caster and should have an inherent chance of failure. Here’s what I’m thinking:

• Pay an XP cost to attempt to cast from a book, regardless of success or failure of subsequent steps. Maybe 25 xp per SL? That would have added up quickly yesterday.
• Make a Spellcraft check DC 20+SL to cast from the book on the fly. Failure by 5 or more burns the page. Failure less than 5 does nothing.
• Make other checks as if casting from a scroll (e.g., CL inadequate, don’t have the ability score, etc.) with typical outcomes.

I like the idea of costing XP and I still think pages should disappear