Courage Domain

[Valdis]

The bard ability is tied to the #of Bardic Music uses per day.  We could substitute that with the cleric's turn attempt and make it the duration equal to the clerics level Plus Charisma modifier

[Hero]

This is also for Tfop?

[Asinjin]

Tyrogatore, Stasis, and Tfop

[Asinjin]

Since Tfop doesn't have a turn-like ability, it will be an issue tying this ability to turning.

[Valdis]

How about 1x per day per Cha modifier.

[Windblade]

Tfop should have some sort of turn ability to make use of divine feats even if they can not turn the undead.  Even if you just give tfop an ability that can't be used a # of times per day equal to there turn attempts then they should still have some way to use divine feats.  So if you are keeping track of it for divine feats then you can also say for the courage ability for tfop that it would be = to the # of turn attempts they would have gotten.  This is much simple to state then to write out and explain but hopefully everyone gets the idea.

[Asinjin]

We will have to bring Master Po in for this, but we have reviewed it before and determined that his current replacement ability is appropriate.

[master po]

Tfop should have some sort of turn ability to make use of divine feats even if they can not turn the undead.  Even if you just give tfop an ability that can't be used a # of times per day equal to there turn attempts then they should still have some way to use divine feats.  So if you are keeping track of it for divine feats then you can also say for the courage ability for tfop that it would be = to the # of turn attempts they would have gotten.  This is much simple to state then to write out and explain but hopefully everyone gets the idea.

Why do you think they should have access to the Divine feats?  I think what Tfop's followers get instead of turning makes a lot of sense.  I never felt like Claude missed out because he couldn't take divine feats.  Just another choice we all have to make.

I don't like the idea of basing it on something I would have gotten if I had the abilty.  I would rather have it based on something a character actually has.  Charisma would be tough for Claude but it's better than the alternative. 

[Windblade]

I believe the turning ability or its replacements are what makes a cleric a cleric.  It is access to the power that let's the cleric exert there deities will on the world.   I believe that all the cleric turn abilities should in some way tie back to that power.  The brew potion is simple to fix and base it on that power.  You could do the following.

Tfop power: Brew Potion (ignore prerequisites) feat AND Skill Focus (Alchemy) feat AND add caster level to Craft (Alchemy) skill checks.  The potion has a number of doses equal the amount of turn undead charges the cleric would spend to make it or maybe half the number of turn undead charges the cleric used to make it if that works better.

That way they still have access to the divine feats.  It doesn't make sense to me that Tfop's clerics are the only ones not to have access to them.

[whitesword]

I brought this whole issue up in the Water domain a few weeks ago.  I have to defer to DM's judgement about whether the replacement powers offset the loss of the ability to turn AND access to the divine feats.

[Windblade]

I do not know all of the deities abilities but this is the first one I notice that wasn't based on turn attempts.  Tyragatore I know has stunning fist  but it is the same amount as turn attempts so you can use stunning fists to power divine feats.  Same with Lakius and water breathing.  I guess the DM can enlighten us to any abilities that don't work like turn attempts such as Tfop's.  Then I think we should modify them all to incorporate the turn attempt mechanic in some way like we did with Lakius and Tyragatore.

[Windblade]

Another option which I really like but is a little more complicated is to change the name of the turn undead ability to to something like divine power.  Every cleric has a pool of divine power from the deity which can be used to power turn undead, divine feats and the abilities that we give the cleric such as stunning fist.  This pool should be calculated like the turn undead is for the # of times a cleric can use it.  That way we can have abilities like the one Tfop has in place of turning undead that doesn't have to rely on the # of turn undeads and still give the cleric access to divine feats.

[Asinjin]

Since we have now a new forum to discuss the abilities of the clerics, let us return to discussing the specific granted power for the Courage domain.

[Windblade]

The bard ability is tied to the #of Bardic Music uses per day.  We could substitute that with the cleric's turn attempt and make it the duration equal to the clerics level Plus Charisma modifier

I would just do this since we can't worry right now that Tfop can't use it and after our discussion maybe he can.

[whitesword]

I would just do this since we can't worry right now that Tfop can't use it and after our discussion maybe he can.

I don't think we can do that. If the clerics of Tfop don't have the pool of turn attempts to draw from and the others do we make the ability more powerful for Tfop than the others. My vote is number of times per day equal to Charisma mod. It's a pretty potent ability.