Grapple

[Asinjin]

Some issues with grappling can be discussed.  Some issues are:

- is the touch attack to initiate fair? (a common house rule elsewhere is to make touch attacks dex based not str)
- should all creatures be able to grapple?  (like the horse)

[Windblade]

I don't have a problem with the touch attack starting a grapple.   I really hate the idea of changing it to dex.  It doesn't make sense to me and it would also ruin Lennie as a character for me.

I do agree that not all creatures should be able to grapple and I believe the DM should make the call on these in game.  A horse is a great example of a creature that wouldn't be able to grapple well but would be hard to grapple.  So all the special modifiers the horse gets should only apply to when is trying to be grappled and not when it is grappling someone.

[whitesword]

My hatred of the grappling rules is well known. I would eliminate the strength bonus from all touch attacks for consistency or make it a normal attack to initiate a grapple.

[Asinjin]

My hatred of the grappling rules is well known. I would eliminate the strength bonus from all touch attacks for consistency or make it a normal attack to initiate a grapple.

There is a feat...Scorpion's Grasp I believe, that allows you to initiate a grapple upon a successful normal attack.  Changing the touch from str to dex would make that feat even more valuable, and basically a requirement for any strong grappler.

[whitesword]

Scorpions Grasp allows you to strike for damage and then attempt a grapple if you hit. I'm saying you should have to succeed on a regular attack roll against the opponents regular AC instead of using touch AC. This would keep the attack as a STR based roll.

[Asinjin]

I understand what you are saying.  I was commenting that if we switched it to dex instead of strength for the touch to initiate grapple, a fighter with a high str could not be screwed by taking the SG feat and still getting to make an attack using str.

I was trying to demonstrate a work-around for those that have characters already built and rely on str to initiate a grapple if we change it to dex.

[whitesword]

I understand what you are saying.  I was commenting that if we switched it to dex instead of strength for the touch to initiate grapple, a fighter with a high str could not be screwed by taking the SG feat and still getting to make an attack using str.

I was trying to demonstrate a work-around for those that have characters already built and rely on str to initiate a grapple if we change it to dex.

makes complete sense

[Hero]

Some issues with grappling can be discussed.  Some issues are:

- is the touch attack to initiate fair? (a common house rule elsewhere is to make touch attacks dex based not str)
- should all creatures be able to grapple?  (like the horse)

Touch attacks using Dex make sense for spells since you are just trying to make contact. For grappling, I think str is relevant since you are trying to grab and hold. Take a look at the UFC fighters, they certainly do not appear to be using Dex for initiating grapples. Maybe make it users choice, Str or Dex, if you feel the need to modify it.

And I think anything can grapple, even quadrupeds. See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-dn1Ubcdus

[Windblade]

I would also argue a dog can grapple and lions, tigers, bears etc.  So being a quadruped isn't the problem.  However, I would still argue a horse, a cow and some others animals can't grapple.  My finally thoughts would be not to change anything and let the DM make calls on things that can't grapple at all or would have difficulty grappling and then apply a circumstance modifer accordingly.

[Hero]

As long as something is capable of grabbing, it should be able to grapple. A horse can bite and hold on the same way as a dog. But not a hoof. I think it becomes a judgement call.

[whitesword]

Touch attacks using Dex make sense for spells since you are just trying to make contact. For grappling, I think str is relevant since you are trying to grab and hold. Take a look at the UFC fighters, they certainly do not appear to be using Dex for initiating grapples. Maybe make it users choice, Str or Dex, if you feel the need to modify it.

And I think anything can grapple, even quadrupeds. See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-dn1Ubcdus

I agree, to the extent that you use strength to hold someone. My issue is that its a touch attack.

[Windblade]

All you have to do is change your view on what a touch attack is and your issue goes away.  Wizards never really specified how to view touch attacks.  I just view it as something that requires strength.  More then just a touch on the armor or cloak but more of a hard grab using strength which then sets your up for the grapple.  If you view it that way then no problem

[whitesword]

All you have to do is change your view on what a touch attack is and your issue goes away.  Wizards never really specified how to view touch attacks.  I just view it as something that requires strength.  More then just a touch on the armor or cloak but more of a hard grab using strength which then sets your up for the grapple.  If you view it that way then no problem

I understand but I disagree. They have lumped Grapple attacks in with true touch only attacks. I don't think you should get your strength bonus to a true touch only because full extertion makes you less accurate not more. With a regular attack you are trying to drive your attack through you're target so the strength bonus makes sense.

With a grapple, I really don't have much problem with you getting your strength bonus I just don't think it's a touch attack. In other words I think the defenders armor is a substantial hindrance and should fully apply.

[Asinjin]

For a point of comparison, the Pathfinder system allows you to start a grapple by succeeding in an opposed roll (attacker gets BAB+Str+Size+other vs defender gets BAB+Str+Dex+Size+other). 

There is no attack roll before the grapple attempt.

Only one attempt can be made per round, as it is a standard action to attempt to initiate a grapple.

So the basic opposed roll is more difficult for the attacker, and the attacker gets less chances in a round.  However, it is easier in that the attacker does not have to complete the extra step of the touch attack.

[Asinjin]

Note that there is no way to compare how it is done in 4th edition, as it is so alien.