Vow of Poverty

[Asinjin]

How should it be handled in the 4th era?

[Windblade]

The 2 examples of the VoP that we have are Ajax and Solaris and they both had the Saint template.  I think the Saint template is awesome but it might be a bit over powered especially when combined with the VoP.  If we were not making any changes to the magic rules then I would probably say leave it alone and maybe just not let it be combined with the Saint.  However, since we have no magic rules and magic items are supposed to be more scarce then I think we need to adjust it.  I think changing the table and down powering it would just prevent it from being played.  However, if we adjust the requirements (e.g. making bigger penalties in game and in RPing) to get it then we might be able to make it work. 

[Valdis]

I think we should make it a prestige class (Ascetic) and give it the same/similar prerequisites as the Saint Prestige class

Alignment:   Any
Abilities:   Wis 15+, Cha 13+
Special:   The ability to cast Divine Spells from the second level.
Base Bonus Attack:   +3

This could be a separate (darker) path for deities of non-good alignment.  A sort of mirror for the Saint prestige class

Get rid of the spell like abilities (Endure Elements, Sustenance, Greater Sustenance, and Freedom of movement) and replace them with conditional bonuses to the relevant saving throw for what those abilities protect you from (ie. you can function normally in extreme weather conditions, but not forever; you can survive without food and water for longer than normal, but not forever; you get a bonus to reflex saves when attempting to be held/grappled/entangled)

Also, you would not be able to combine this prestige class with the Saint prestige class or, let it be able to be combined but make the Saint prestige class Epic so players can't take it before level 20

[Windblade]

I think we should make it a prestige class (Ascetic) and give it the same/similar prerequisites as the Saint Prestige class

Alignment:   Any
Abilities:   Wis 15+, Cha 13+
Special:   The ability to cast Divine Spells from the second level.
Base Bonus Attack:   +3

This could be a separate (darker) path for deities of non-good alignment.  A sort of mirror for the Saint prestige class

Get rid of the spell like abilities (Endure Elements, Sustenance, Greater Sustenance, and Freedom of movement) and replace them with conditional bonuses to the relevant saving throw for what those abilities protect you from (ie. you can function normally in extreme weather conditions, but not forever; you can survive without food and water for longer than normal, but not forever; you get a bonus to reflex saves when attempting to be held/grappled/entangled)

Also, you would not be able to combine this prestige class with the Saint prestige class or, let it be able to be combined but make the Saint prestige class Epic so players can't take it before level 20

I think these are some cool ideas.  I would be up for some new prestige classes like this.  If I did this I would still separate the ideas of poverty vs sainthood.  I think it is ok take a person who vowed poverty and endow them with holy abilities but I think there should be other ways to to get these saint-like abilities as well.  However, I really do like the ideas of having a saint prestige class and the opposite evil prestige class and then make a separate prestige for the VoP or have the saint prestige class with a few different paths it can take and the same for the opposite class.

[Hero]

I’m down with the idea of prestige classes for both VoP and Saint.

I suggest VoP be low entry requirements so it can be acquired at low levels (like Oddsmaker). It should be open to any class, and should periodically advance base class abilities (like Oddsmaker).

Saint should be an epic prestige class to represent the long, arduous journey to achieve that status.

Both should be exalted. Their counterparts vile.

[Windblade]

I do think there should be higher level requirements for the Saint and its counter part.  However, to make it an epic level prestige class I think it is a little much.  In DM Derek's campaign it took me 15-20 real years (DM could tell me exactly how long) just to get Solaris to epic which means I would have one level in that prestige class and never really get to play it.  Not that I am interested in playing a saint right now but at that rate I would be almost 60 before I could start to play a Saint or its counter part.  Solaris is also the only character I got to epic level (which I think is 21) and technically it didn't happen until when Solaris adventured in Whitesword's online campaign.  So that means that if I didn't run Solaris in Whiteswords campaign this past year then I would have gone 20 years of playing in DM campaign without an epic level character.  I don't really mind this but it would caution me from making any prestige class that we want to actually play have epic level requirements.

I think we should start the entry to these prestige classes somewhere in the low teens so that you get the last level of the class when you hit epic or so.  I would put knowledge religion as a skill and use that as the gate way for the class. So knowledge religion 15 would allow you to start the class at level 12 or something along those lines.  Maybe we call the prestige class something else and you don't get the title of saint until you hit the last of the prestige.  So the last level of this class would be called sainthood or something and you get the finally ability and the title.

[Hero]

Bump

[Malchia]

I'm open to changes, but have no problem with VoP just the way it is.

[Windblade]

I agree with Dan because if you receive magic items like you would in a typical setting it is pretty balanced with the VoP. A character would could definitely use magic items and feats to get AC of 50 plus with the VoP you are missing out on a lot of other potential magic item effects that you can't get at all because you don't have access to magic items. Solaris never got the 50 and above until level 20 that is a long time to horde powerful magic items.  Nathan ended at level 16 and his magic items were better then everything Solaris got from the VoP at level 20 and he still had 4 more levels to accumulate items.  My only concern is that magic items are reduced in the current Habololy setting so the VoP might be more powerful in this setting.  However, I would rather just see really heavy roleplaying restriction to get the VoP  and definitely heavier RP restriction on the Saint Template.  For example one thing to note was that Solaris was always supposed to get an equivalent share of the spoils to donate to the church and I tried to that when I played him but it was never strictly enforced.