Epic Vow of Poverty

[Asinjin]

Addressing the issue of what happens for those that take this vow at Epic levels.

[Asinjin]

Up for review and debate:

21st - AC bonus +11, Resist Planar Effects
22nd - Resistance +4, Bonus Exalted Epic Feat
23rd - Exalted Strike Epic, Damage Reduction 5/epic
24th - AC bonus +12, natural armor +1, Deflection +4
25th - Spell Resistance (5+ character level)
26th - Ability Score Enhancement +10/ +8/ +6/ +4/ +2, Avoid Planar Effects
27th - AC bonus +13, Energy Resistance 25
28th - Resistance +5, Bonus Exalted Epic Feat
29th - Damage Reduction 10/epic
30th - AC bonus +14, Deflection +5

[Hero]

Are you proposing adding a new feat to expand the abilities, or just adding it to the standard VoP?

I think precedent for a new feat is set by existing feats like Epic Leadership and the Craft Epic magic item series.

[Asinjin]

Are you proposing adding a new feat to expand the abilities, or just adding it to the standard VoP?

I think precedent for a new feat is set by existing feats like Epic Leadership and the Craft Epic magic item series.

That's a good point.  More so the Leadership feat, but still.

[Windblade]

There should be no extra feat to take it.  Leadership is a skill that you can choose to increase if you want as you get in to epic and you make that decision by picking the epic leadership feat.  Vow of Poverty is you going up all magic items so if you want the character to be functional into epic levels then you need to extended.  They are already giving up so much with the magic items that there is no need to charge them a feat. 

[Asinjin]

There should be no extra feat to take it.  Leadership is a skill that you can choose to increase if you want as you get in to epic and you make that decision by picking the epic leadership feat.  Vow of Poverty is you going up all magic items so if you want the character to be functional into epic levels then you need to extended.  They are already giving up so much with the magic items that there is no need to charge them a feat.

Leadership isn't a skill.

[Windblade]

Yeah I know.  I was using the term more generically. Didn't mean to mix it up with an actual skill from the game.  The point is that is more of an optional thing that your character can choose to get better at but it will not really impact you if you choose not to get better at being leader but choose to get better at something else.   The vow of poverty is more of a flavor thing to help roleplaying and the abilities replace magic items so it would make sense to keep that ability into epic levels.  It is not like a normal character is not allowed to earn gold at epic level and buy epic items.

[Malchia]

This is interesting because it's a feat initially, so the issue is do you choose to evolve into something more, or do you simply get better abilities as your character becomes epic?

I would vote for an Epic Vow of Poverty feat similar to Epic Leadership.  Kind of like renewing wedding vows except that you're taking on an even deeper level of commitment.  Feats are choices, so you should be able to choose whether you continue down a certain path or choose to diversify.  For example, do you take Great Cleave after taking Cleave or do you move on to something else like Two-weapon Fighting?

On the flip side, I think class abilities should grow as you gain power, like spell casters gaining access to 10th level spells and spell slots at 21st level, fighters getting bonus epic feats every other level, or Clerics turning additional undead.  These abilities shouldn't require feats since they represent your continued study or practice in whatever discipline you chose at 1st level.

[Windblade]

The character basically becomes unplayable without it.  It should not even be a thought to have an extra f es at for it.

[Malchia]

The character basically becomes unplayable without it.  It should not even be a thought to have an extra f es at for it.

After reading the feat, I withdraw my previous statement.  It clearly states within the text that your abilities are level based.  I agree with Windblade that the powers should increase into the epic realm once your character hits 21+ levels.

Benefit
You gain bonuses to your Armor Class, ability scores, and saving throws, as well as bonus exalted feats, all depending on your character level. See Voluntary Poverty in Chapter 2 for details.

[Asinjin]

It won't be a new feat, lets look at the advanced abilities now and review them.

[Malchia]

It won't be a new feat, lets look at the advanced abilities now and review them.

I feel like Exalted Strike Epic should come sooner than 23rd level, but I realize it doesn't exactly fit with the pattern of ability growth found on the initial chart.  Not sure what to suggest for that one.  Maybe 22nd?  You spend a level (21st) as an epic character learning how to overcome epic opponents, than figure it out by 22nd.  I'm not sure a character with this feat would ever live to see 23rd level without the ability to damage epic opponents.

Maybe continue the pattern and have ability score enhancements at 23rd (+10/+8/+6/+4/+2) and 27th (+12/+10/+8/+6/+4/+2).

Character Level     Benefits

1st  AC bonus +4 
2nd  Bonus exalted feat 
3rd  AC bonus +5, endure elements 
4th  Exalted strike +1 (magic), bonus exalted feat 
5th  Sustenance 
6th  AC bonus +6, deflection +1, bonus exalted feat 
7th  Resistance +1, ability score enhancement +2 
8th  Natural armor +1, mind shielding, bonus exalted feat 
9th  AC bonus +7 
10th  Exalted strike +2 (good), damage reduction 5/magic, bonus exalted feat 
11th  Ability score enhancement +4/+2 
12th  AC bonus +8, deflection +2, greater sustenance, bonus exalted feat 
13th  Resistance +2, energy resistance 5 
14th  Exalted strike +3, freedom of movement, bonus exalted feat 
15th  AC bonus +9, ability score enhancement +6/+4/+2, damage reduction 5/evil 
16th  Natural armor +2, bonus exalted feat 
17th  Exalted strike +4, resistance +3, regeneration 
18th  AC bonus +10, deflection +3, true seeing, bonus exalted feat 
19th  Ability score enhancement +8/+6/+4/+2, damage reduction 10/evil 
20th  Exalted strike +5, energy resistance 15, bonus exalted feat 

[Hero]

I feel like Exalted Strike Epic should come sooner than 23rd level, but I realize it doesn't exactly fit with the pattern of ability growth found on the initial chart.  Not sure what to suggest for that one.  Maybe 22nd?  You spend a level (21st) as an epic character learning how to overcome epic opponents, than figure it out by 22nd.  I'm not sure a character with this feat would ever live to see 23rd level without the ability to damage epic opponents.

To argue the other side, epic magic weapons require epic crafters, so they are not as easy to come by as normal magic weapons. Epic characters without VoP don’t easily have access to them, so should it take longer for VoP to give Epic Strike? Ari is 22nd level and doesn’t have an epic weapon (though he might if Whitesword posted some loot values...).

[Malchia]

To argue the other side, epic magic weapons require epic crafters, so they are not as easy to come by as normal magic weapons. Epic characters without VoP don’t easily have access to them, so should it take longer for VoP to give Epic Strike? Ari is 22nd level and doesn’t have an epic weapon (though he might if Whitesword posted some loot values...).

That's a good point.  Nobody in our group with a character over 20th has an epic weapon as far as I know.  Ultimately, it could go either way.  DM's call as usual.

[Windblade]

I was going to agree with Malchia on the Epic weapon but Hero made a good counter argument so maybe it should just stay.  I don't think anything else is really missing and I don't think we can really determine what level to put it all at until we played it a bit.  We just don't have enough experience with epic level characters.  The only suggestion I would make is to give more bonus exalted feats to stick with the pattern from the non epic template.  Would we have to make epic exalted feats or do they exist somewhere?