Magic Missile

[Asinjin]

I would only vote for 2 if it applied to MM.  I didn't realize it was across the board effecting other spells.  I wouldn't make these changes to any other spells at this point expect MM.  So I guess I might consider one of the other voting options if 2 applies to all spells and not just MM.

Yes, at some point during this thread, the idea that this rule would apply to all spells that ignore SR came into play.

Since there is less consensus, I would say that the new rule would only apply to magic missile and its other versions Major Missile, Chain Missile, etc.

[Malchia]

Yes, at some point during this thread, the idea that this rule would apply to all spells that ignore SR came into play.

Since there is less consensus, I would say that the new rule would only apply to magic missile and its other versions Major Missile, Chain Missile, etc.

Chain Missile works like MM, but Force Missile doesn't have SR normally.  Would you add it to that spell if fancy Metamagic feats are used when cast?

[Asinjin]

Chain Missile works like MM, but Force Missile doesn't have SR normally.  Would you add it to that spell if fancy Metamagic feats are used when cast?

I would include Force Missile.

[Windblade]

I wouldnt include force missile because then why not include other force spells.  I would limited it to chabe n mm, mm, and major missile.

[Hero]

I wouldnt include force missile because then why not include other force spells.  I would limited it to chabe n mm, mm, and major missile.

Most other force spells are SR: yes. If I remember correctly. Except orb of force. Because a non-magical ball of force makes complete sense to WotC.

I think that if we are committed to making a change, for simplicity's sake we should limit it to any metamagic feat applied only to magic missile.

I am still of the opinion that we are creating an unnecessary rule.

[Malchia]

I am still of the opinion that we are creating an unnecessary rule.

Agreed

[Asinjin]

We are going to take a step back here and using what we have learned from the discussion so far start at the beginning.

The only issue is, how do we make it so that we don't overpower magic missile by making it ignore SR, which is what it does traditionally in our campaigns.

So, keeping in mind that magic missile will continue to ignore SR in its basic form at least AND that we need to add something to down power the Fell, Entangling, Twinned Magic Missile possibility.

Brainstorm.

[Zunder]

We are going to take a step back here and using what we have learned from the discussion so far start at the beginning.

The only issue is, how do we make it so that we don't overpower magic missile by making it ignore SR, which is what it does traditionally in our campaigns.

So, keeping in mind that magic missile will continue to ignore SR in its basic form at least AND that we need to add something to down power the Fell, Entangling, Twinned Magic Missile possibility.

Brainstorm.

So, can we just say that using any of those meta feat on MM only, will allow it to be resisted?

[Asinjin]

So, can we just say that using any of those meta feat on MM only, will allow it to be resisted?

That is one option.  To say that adding any 'fancy' feat to magic missile (and again its higher level versions as well) spoils the pure magic of the spell that allows it to ignore SR.

That would require us to define magic missile and its greater versions in a list (not hard), and to define the 'fancy' metamagic feats (mostly done).

[Hero]

We are going to take a step back here and using what we have learned from the discussion so far start at the beginning.

The only issue is, how do we make it so that we don't overpower magic missile by making it ignore SR, which is what it does traditionally in our campaigns.

So, keeping in mind that magic missile will continue to ignore SR in its basic form at least AND that we need to add something to down power the Fell, Entangling, Twinned Magic Missile possibility.

Brainstorm.

So it is a question of power, and not just a flavor issue?

Keep in mind that a Fell Drain (+2) Entangling (+2) Twinned (+4) Magic Missile is a 9th level spell slot, and the metamagic effects only apply to the base spell (not the twin). So against a single opponent, that spell would deal 1 negative level, entangle for 1 round, dish out 10d4+5 points of damage, and auto-hit; I could think of many other more useful things to do with a 9th level spell slot. A bit better against multiple opponents since every target is hit with the negative level and entangle, but I don't think it's broken (by the time you can do this, 1 negative level isn't that big of a deal).

You could apply all of those feats to a "lesser orb" spell to bypass SR at the cost of a touch attack (generally not an issue). From a power perspective, I don't see the need to "fix" magic missile since there are other options that could be taken advantage of in it's place.

From a magic missile flavor perspective, I struggle with the concept of only applying the SR to "fancy" metamagic. Regardless of the effect, ANY metamagic feat alters the nature of the spell, and therefore should be treated the same across the board.

[Windblade]

Yes but the "fancy" ones alter the substance of MM.  Whereas the other make the pure magic of MM even stronger at least that is how I see it.  When it comes to flavor there really isn't a right or wrong answer on how you can view.  I think this one ultimately comes down to the DM and how he sees the flavor of this spell.

[Malchia]

I'm starting up this conversation again.  With our recent discussions surrounding Magic Missile cannons and wands, it feels relevant.

So far, we all agree that Magic Missile and all it's variants (Chain Missile and Force Missiles) ignore SR on Habololy.  That being the case, the question is should it regain SR if altered by metamagic. 

I don't see any reason why it would need to be changed.  Metamagic feats change the difficulty of the spell, so having the missiles continue to ignore SR seems a mute point.  If one were to Maximize (+3 slots) and Empower (+2 slots) a Magic Missile, it becomes a 6th level spell.  I can think of a lot more powerful 6th level spells that deal a whole lot more damage and some even have no SR or save.  That's only 37.5 points of damage.  75 if Twinned which then becomes a 10th level slot.  We're talking epic level here.  If you're willing and able to use a higher spell slot to modify a Magic Missile, I think the caster should be rewarded with no SR.  That's the whole point of the spell.  It's 1st level for a reason.  It's a staple of arcane spellcasting that has lasted through generations of casters.  Casters take the spell early on in the careers, so it stands to reason they'd be able to learn ways of modifying it over time with metamagic feats. 

The system has it's own way of preventing too much from happening to Magic Missiles by capping them at 5d4+5.  Chain Missiles cap at 10d4+10 and Force Missiles don't cap, but it's a 4th level spell, so there's only so much you can do to beef it up.  Plus, you only gain new missiles every 4 caster levels.  We're looking at 10d6 as a 20th level caster for Force Missiles. 

So, the built in trade off is auto-hit for less damage.  The bonus for no save, no SR spells like the Orbs is higher damage, but you have to hit a ranged touch AC.  You also gain the potential benefit of a critical hit with a roll of 20, whereas you don't get that benefit from Magic Missiles.  It's similar to the shotgun rule.  You auto hit, but there no chance of crit and you can't avoid it unless you happen to be a Modern Ranger with Clicker Evasion.   

Bottom line: Magic Missile and it's sister spells should remain no save, no SR on Habololy regardless of metamagic enhancement.