Magic Missile

[Valdis]

#2

[Hero]

Why the focus only on "fancy" metamagic feats? Is it a balance issue?

[Windblade]

For me it is more of a  RPing and flavor of the game issue. It is recreating what MM was in second edition but not sure about everyone else.

[whitesword]

2

[Asinjin]

Here are the possible options for change:

1 - Magic Missile no longer ignores SR and follows the standard d20 rules Hero

2 - Any meta magic feat that alters or add to the nature of the spell's damage type eliminates the no SR. So burning MM get SR but maximized, extended etc. still no SR. I would apply this across the board because SR is comparatively rare and pretty easily overcome. Whitesword, Valdis, Asinjin, Windblade

3 - A spell that has one of the 'fancy' feats attached ignores SR, but the feat attached must overcome SR to apply

[Malchia]

When you say "applied across the board," are you referring to spells that don't normally have SR?  Hero brought this up and I feel compelled to reiterate.  This is a very important piece of information.  For example, someone casts an Orb of Force and adds Fell Drain to it.  Orb of Force has no SR and no save.  Are you suggesting that SR be added to the spell because Fell Drain was added?

I don't agree with changing Magic Missile, but will go along with whatever the consensus is; primarily because it was changed from the original rules to begin with.  House rules are always DM's prerogative.  That being said, I hope the train of thought here is not to alter every pre-existing spell to add SR just because someone adds metamagic to it. 

Besides, how does one determine what constitutes a "normal" metamagic feat from a "fancy" one?

[Asinjin]

When you say "applied across the board," are you referring to spells that don't normally have SR?  Hero brought this up and I feel compelled to reiterate.  This is a very important piece of information.  For example, someone casts an Orb of Force and adds Fell Drain to it.  Orb of Force has no SR and no save.  Are you suggesting that SR be added to the spell because Fell Drain was added?

I don't agree with changing Magic Missile, but will go along with whatever the consensus is; primarily because it was changed from the original rules to begin with.  House rules are always DM's prerogative.  That being said, I hope the train of thought here is not to alter every pre-existing spell to add SR just because someone adds metamagic to it. 

Besides, how does one determine what constitutes a "normal" metamagic feat from a "fancy" one?

Whitesword's description of 'fancy' worked well enough.  Here would be the list of feats that it would apply to, subject to debate:

Deafening Spell
Entangling Spell
Explosive Spell
Fell Animate
Fell Drain
Fell Frighten
Fell Weaken
Forceful Spell
Poison Spell
Reaping Spell
Slime Spell
Wounding Spell

[Malchia]

Whitesword's description of 'fancy' worked well enough.  Here would be the list of feats that it would apply to, subject to debate:

Deafening Spell
Entangling Spell
Explosive Spell
Fell Animate
Fell Drain
Fell Frighten
Fell Weaken
Forceful Spell
Poison Spell
Reaping Spell
Slime Spell
Wounding Spell

That answers what feats you had in mind, but doesn't answer the question of whether or not you plan to add SR to spells that don't normally have it.

[Hero]

Whitesword's description of 'fancy' worked well enough.  Here would be the list of feats that it would apply to, subject to debate:

Deafening Spell
Entangling Spell
Explosive Spell
Fell Animate
Fell Drain
Fell Frighten
Fell Weaken
Forceful Spell
Poison Spell
Reaping Spell
Slime Spell
Wounding Spell

Why just these and not maximize, extend, etc? I sty ill don't understand the reason to treat them differently.

[Asinjin]

Why just these and not maximize, extend, etc? I sty ill don't understand the reason to treat them differently.

Whitesword gives an explanation a few pages back, but the idea is that only feats that have an effect different from the original spell.

[Hero]

Whitesword gives an explanation a few pages back, but the idea is that only feats that have an effect different from the original spell.

I saw that, but it's not really an explanation as to why we should treat them differently than empower, maximize, etc.

I think adding +50% more damage from empowermagic missiles  or creating a second orb of X via twin spell would fall under adding to or altering a spell effect to the point that it is different from the original spell.

Certainly energy substitution and energy admixture fall into the same category.. Transdimensional spell too.

[Malchia]

I saw that, but it's not really an explanation as to why we should treat them differently than empower, maximize, etc.

I think adding +50% more damage from empowermagic missiles  or creating a second orb of X via twin spell would fall under adding to or altering a spell effect to the point that it is different from the original spell.

Certainly energy substitution and energy admixture fall into the same category.. Transdimensional spell too.

Brings me back to why we should just leave everything alone.

[Windblade]

I don't think there is a clear cut answer to what you are looking for it is more of a flavor of trying to recreate 2nd edition MM.   At least to my understanding on habololy MM are made from "pure"' arcane magic.  This is the same stuff that comes out of the crevices in Home.  It is pure magic and nothing stops it.  Altering duration, distance, damage etc doesn't change the fact that is pure arcane magic.  However, adding fire or entangling to the spell gives it another magic energy source and taints the pure arcane magic.  In theory we could go through all the spells and decide which other spell might fall into the pure magic category but MM is such an I iconic spell that it needs to be done here to keep up with the tradition of the spell.  At least this is how I see it.

[Malchia]

I don't think there is a clear cut answer to what you are looking for it is more of a flavor of trying to recreate 2nd edition MM.   At least to my understanding on habololy MM are made from "pure"' arcane magic.  This is the same stuff that comes out of the crevices in Home.  It is pure magic and nothing stops it.  Altering duration, distance, damage etc doesn't change the fact that is pure arcane magic.  However, adding fire or entangling to the spell gives it another magic energy source and taints the pure arcane magic.  In theory we could go through all the spells and decide which other spell might fall into the pure magic category but MM is such an I iconic spell that it needs to be done here to keep up with the tradition of the spell.  At least this is how I see it.

I understand your point regarding MM, but this thread has evolved to include all Metamagic feats and all spells.  That's the part that concerns me.  One could argue that all magic is pure magic.  One could also argue that divine magic isn't susceptible to these rules because they are the will of the gods manifested into spells.  If a deity wishes a spell to be entangling and fell draining, who are we as mortals to say otherwise? 

[Windblade]

I would only vote for 2 if it applied to MM.  I didn't realize it was across the board effecting other spells.  I wouldn't make these changes to any other spells at this point expect MM.  So I guess I might consider one of the other voting options if 2 applies to all spells and not just MM.