Habololy Forum
Habololy Books => Magic of Habololy => Topic started by: Asinjin on September 22, 2017, 08:56:49 AM
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Since we have never defined for us the parameters of this feat, it seems like a good time to do so.
I would suggest that the wording of fixed spells that it can be applied to means only spells that have a set distance. So, in addition to the explicitly listed personal spells that it can be applied to, it can be applied to spells that have a distance of feet listed as their range. That would exclude any close, medium, and long range spells as well as touch spells.
Thoughts?
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Isn't "touch" a fixed range?
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Isn't "touch" a fixed range?
I'd say yes. It would be like casting a light spell and having it last all day instead of just 1 hour. I would also argue that anything that can be made permanent should be allowed to be made persistent, regardless of range.
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Isn't "touch" a fixed range?
There is a debate about that online forums and I'd say its mixed.
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I'd say yes. It would be like casting a light spell and having it last all day instead of just 1 hour. I would also argue that anything that can be made permanent should be allowed to be made persistent, regardless of range.
For the original spells allowed to be made permanent by the PHB, I would agree. However, I would have to review our additional spells that we allow to be made permanent.
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Picking this topic back up since Haas is a persistent spell user and some of this might affect options for this season.
Can persistent touch spells be used on targets other than yourself? For instance, could Haas cast persistent enlarge person on Valizar?
I think there was a debate during the character tournament about the use of persist and divine meta magic to cast spell well above your normal level and into epic spell levels. For instance, righteous might + DMM(persist) = 11th level spell. Was there a final ruling on this?
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Picking this topic back up since Haas is a persistent spell user and some of this might affect options for this season.
Can persistent touch spells be used on targets other than yourself? For instance, could Haas cast persistent enlarge person on Valizar?
I think there was a debate during the character tournament about the use of persist and divine meta magic to cast spell well above your normal level and into epic spell levels. For instance, righteous might + DMM(persist) = 11th level spell. Was there a final ruling on this?
If it was decided that touch spells were allowed to be made persistent, than I assume you could cast on someone else.
I do not recall if we had a final ruling. I know this came up with the item caster and the ruling was that the item caster cannot make spells epic unless he can cast that level of epic spell. We also ruled that the item caster cannot use his items to make a spell more than three levels higher than his maximum caster level.
I think we should either rule that persistent can't go into epic levels or it costs additional levels to get to 10th and beyond. So a 4th level persistent would cost 7 not 6; a 5th level persistent would cost even more, say 8 not 6.
Thoughts?
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If it was decided that touch spells were allowed to be made persistent, than I assume you could cast on someone else.
I do not recall if we had a final ruling. I know this came up with the item caster and the ruling was that the item caster cannot make spells epic unless he can cast that level of epic spell. We also ruled that the item caster cannot use his items to make a spell more than three levels higher than his maximum caster level.
I think we should either rule that persistent can't go into epic levels or it costs additional levels to get to 10th and beyond. So a 4th level persistent would cost 7 not 6; a 5th level persistent would cost even more, say 8 not 6.
Thoughts?
I'm not sure there's any reason to increase the cost of persistent spells. In order to cast higher level spells, a caster would need to take an assortment of feats to reduce the cost (like Easy Metamagic Persistent and Arcane Thesis) in addition to being able to cast high level slots. It stands to reason that someone who has achieved that level of power may have discovered some arcane secrets along the way. Plus, if someone is willing to spend all their feats on reducing the cost of persistent spells, then that's their choice.
If measured in terms of epic levels, I think it would make sense to simply allow those spells to be cast by those who have epic level spell slots. For example, a 21st level character with 10th level slots could persist a 4th level spell and use one of their 10th level slots. Once they grow powerful enough to cast 11th level spells, they could persist a 5th level spell, etc.
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I like the idea of additional penalty, but I would use groups like Spell Level 1-4: +0 penalty; Spell Level 5-8: +2 penalty; Spell Level 9+: +4 penalty
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I like the idea of additional penalty, but I would use groups like Spell Level 1-4: +0 penalty; Spell Level 5-8: +2 penalty; Spell Level 9+: +4 penalty
I really like this idea and I think it might be the best way to handle.
I don't believe touch spells should be added to the list of things to used persistent. I think the intent of persistent spell is for buffs to caster to be made for a long time and not for attack spells such as different touch spells.
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I really like this idea and I think it might be the best way to handle.
I don't believe touch spells should be added to the list of things to used persistent. I think the intent of persistent spell is for buffs to caster to be made for a long time and not for attack spells such as different touch spells.
I don't see why touch spells shouldn't be included. It's duration that becomes the real issue, not the delivery method. Why couldn't a Blur or Bull's Strength be persisted? As long as it's not instantaneous like a healing spell, there's no reason touch spells should be excluded from the list. Honestly, many of the best buffs are touch spells.
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I can't think of any that aren't attack spells. Which ones were you thinking that are touch buff spells?
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I can't think of any that aren't attack spells. Which ones were you thinking that are touch buff spells?
Quick SRD scan: Enlarge Person, Shield of Faith, Neutralize Poison, Water Breathing, Align Weapon, all of the +4 ability enhancement spells
Maybe restrict it from applying to offense spells if allowing "touch" as a fixed range.
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I can't think of any that aren't attack spells. Which ones were you thinking that are touch buff spells?
I listed two (Blur, Bull's Strength), but there are many others like all the ability spells (Cat's Grace, Animalistic Power, etc.), Align Weapon, Barkskin, Crown of Might, Darkvision, Greater Enlarge Person, Fly, Freedom of Movement, Invisibility, Light, Mage Armor, Status, Tongues, etc. You get the idea.
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Ok I didn’t realize then I think we need to add touch spells to the mix. Maybe we just limit it to nonspella that do damage. Only spells that increase stats.
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There are two questions left that needed to be answered.
1) How to handle spells that would be of epic level?
2) Can touch spells be made persistent?
The consensus appears to be to make epic spells cast more to cast using divine metamagic (or similar feat). So making a spell equivalent 10th costs one extra spell level, 11th, costs 2 extra, and so forth. That means that making a 9th level spell persistent would cost 12 slots.
Touch spells still under consideration. Thoughts?
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There are two questions left that needed to be answered.
1) How to handle spells that would be of epic level?
2) Can touch spells be made persistent?
The consensus appears to be to make epic spells cast more to cast using divine metamagic (or similar feat). So making a spell equivalent 10th costs one extra spell level, 11th, costs 2 extra, and so forth. That means that making a 9th level spell persistent would cost 12 slots.
Touch spells still under consideration. Thoughts?
As long as the touch spells have a duration, then yes, I would include them.
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I don’t think attack touch spells that discharge should be included
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I don’t think attack touch spells that discharge should be included
This is part of the normal persistent spell rules - cannot persist anything with an instantaneous duration or that can be discharged.
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1) How to handle spells that would be of epic level
The consensus appears to be to make epic spells cast more to cast using divine metamagic (or similar feat). So making a spell equivalent 10th costs one extra spell level, 11th, costs 2 extra, and so forth. That means that making a 9th level spell persistent would cost 12 slots.
Note that there is precedent set for offsetting metamagic costs - there’s a bardic music feat called metamagic song (https://dndtools.net/feats/races-of-stone--82/metamagic-song--1932/) that uses bardic music to pay for metamagic the same way DMM uses turn undead, except the bardic version specifically states you can’t use it to cast spells of a level you couldn’t normally cast.
So should we impose a similar restriction on DMM? Or imposes a higher cost if you exceed you normal casting ability?
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Note that there is precedent set for offsetting metamagic costs - there’s a bardic music feat called metamagic song (https://dndtools.net/feats/races-of-stone--82/metamagic-song--1932/) that uses bardic music to pay for metamagic the same way DMM uses turn undead, except the bardic version specifically states you can’t use it to cast spells of a level you couldn’t normally cast.
So should we impose a similar restriction on DMM? Or imposes a higher cost if you exceed you normal casting ability?
I would say higher cost for exceeding. It would be an even bigger issue for bards since they cap at a lower level.
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I would say higher cost for exceeding. It would be an even bigger issue for bards since they cap at a lower level.
If we are just going to keep adding penalties, why not just ban the feats or feat combinations? We're running the risk of "pricing it" out of usefulness. DMm already has a built in +1 level penalty. Arcane Thesis can only be applied to a single spell one time so you can't stack that multiple times.
What about just making a rule that spells above "X" level can not be made persistent? And don't add any additional penalties other than what is laid out in the feats in their current form.