Underdogs

[Asinjin]

Some questions:

Should the underdog have the advantage of knowing the opponent, and the opponent not know before the match?

Should the opponent know the categories that the underdog has set before the match?

[Valdis]

• No.  The underdog already has an advantage by setting the stage of the confrontation.  If he is getting to chose the setting, it stands to reason that he/she will frame it to their best advantage.  Giving them knowledge of their opponent will only allow for specifically crafted kill zones
• No.  The underdog will lose some of the advantage of choosing the location, etc... of the fight

[Zunder]

Some questions:

Should the underdog have the advantage of knowing the opponent, and the opponent not know before the match?

Should the opponent know the categories that the underdog has set before the match?

1 - I think it should be a surprise for both players.
2 - No, Because, honestly if some characters are able to prepare for specifics they won't loose. I think this will force players/characters to prepare for anything.  That alone will be worth the price of admission.


Honestly, what's the point otherwise. 

[whitesword]

Agreed (with both of the well reasoned posts above)

[Asinjin]

To the 2nd point, I think we can settle that.  The opponent will not know which criteria have been picked by the underdog and which are random.

To the first point, there are several problems with neither knowing:

1- I am involved, and at least I have to know all of the pairings, so it gives me an advantage (albeit I only have one character so a small one)
 
2- The ranking of the characters won't entirely give away the match-ups, but it will narrow it down.  If we don't want the favored to know, I would have to do the ranking and not reveal them.

3- The underdog's advantage may be diminished too much if he doesn't know his opponent.

[Windblade]

To the 2nd point, I think we can settle that.  The opponent will not know which criteria have been picked by the underdog and which are random.

To the first point, there are several problems with neither knowing:

1- I am involved, and at least I have to know all of the pairings, so it gives me an advantage (albeit I only have one character so a small one)
 
2- The ranking of the characters won't entirely give away the match-ups, but it will narrow it down.  If we don't want the favored to know, I would have to do the ranking and not reveal them.

3- The underdog's advantage may be diminished too much if he doesn't know his opponent.

Nice post DM you must have read my mind because you voiced all my major concerns.

Also I am excited  to talk about and rank the characters I think that is part of the fun so I wouldn't want DM to do that by himself.


I am torn between giving the underdog too much of an advantage and as DM said maybe not enough of an advantage.  I think the way we control this is not so much by letting the character not know who he is fighting but more by figuring out what the underdog is allowed to tweak in the fight and by how much they can tweak it.  I think if we can discuss this and nail it down then it would be better then not letting the underdog know who he is fighting.

[Asinjin]

Other issue with knowing who you are fighting.  As we near the end, especially with the now set criteria of trying to avoid player vs himself, it will become obvious who you are fighting in the later rounds.  So the underdog will know without trying.

Should we then just let the underdog know from the beginning?  Otherwise the underdogs in the later rounds have a bigger advantage than those in the early rounds.

[Windblade]

Other issue with knowing who you are fighting.  As we near the end, especially with the now set criteria of trying to avoid player vs himself, it will become obvious who you are fighting in the later rounds.  So the underdog will know without trying.

Should we then just let the underdog know from the beginning?  Otherwise the underdogs in the later rounds have a bigger advantage than those in the early rounds.

Makes sense to m

[Hero]

I think both characters should know who they are fighting so they can prepare a strategy. But other than that, it should be like a random encounter, so any prepared spells are generic and not specifically tailored to take advantage of an opponent's specific weaknesses.

[Hero]

Here's an idea: rather than letting the underdog select specific conditions to give him too much of an advantage, how about randomly determining all match conditions but allowing the underdog to re-roll a number of these equal to the total level differential between him and his opponent. He may then select the conditions from those randomly generated results. Re-rolls can be spread across multiple categories or spent all on one category.

Thoughts?

[Asinjin]

Its a fair idea, but I prefer the underdog get to pick certain criteria outright.  I am open to hearing what everyone else things about the idea.

[Windblade]

I like the idea of the underdog being able to pick the conditions.  Maybe because it is a throw back to our 2nd Edition tournament.  However, I think as we discussed last night that letting them pick that conditions in the first match, letting the second match be random and then in the 3rd match the underdog can't pick the same exact scenario as he did in the first match.  We would just have to come up with restrictions for the 3rd match and what they can pick.

[Zunder]

This all goes back to what's the point.


If you are trying to figure out who is the strongest PC,  then randomize everything.  1 match, winner take all.


If you are trying to figure out who is the strongest Player, then everything should be a surprise.


Sounds like you are trying to actually be fair about it, which seems like way to much effort.

[Windblade]

I think the point is having a tournament that allows some of the lower level characters to participate and still have a chance.  If we were purely just going for the strongest character then we could just get all the characters 15th level and above and have them fight or something like that.   I think there are 2 points to the tournament.  First to find out the strongest character and second to just have fun and have as many characters fight as possible.  The only way to have the low level characters fight is if they have an option to pick the setting.  We did this in second edition and it was a lot of fun and the most powerful people still won in the end and I don't think this will be any different in third edition.