Habololy Forum
House Rules => Tournament Rule Issues => Topic started by: Asinjin on April 21, 2014, 10:33:01 AM
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We have been misusing the wishes for other spells rules by not having them cost xp.
To add it in, but not completely, as at least I think its a little silly to cost 300xp for a 1st level spell, I suggest the following:
When using a wish spell to re-create another spell, the caster must expend xp equal to 50 times the level of the spell being re-created.
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I agree but for 7th & 8th l would have a different rate because wish cost more. So I would use 500
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I don't think we're playing Limited Wish incorrectly. If you scrutinize the text, you'll see that only when duplicating a spell that uses XP do you have to spend that cost or 300 XP (whichever is more). It doesn't cost XP if the spell you're replicating doesn't cost XP originally. I've bolded the sentence that explains this.
Limited Wish Universal
Level: Sor/Wiz 7
Components: V, S, XP
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range: See text
Target, Effect, or
Area: See text
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: None; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes
A limited wish lets you create nearly any type of effect. For example, a limited wish can do any of the following things.
Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower, even if it’s of a prohibited school.
Duplicate any other spell of 4th level or lower, even if it’s of a prohibited school.
Undo the harmful effects of many spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects, such as a single creature automatically hitting on its next attack or taking a –7 penalty on its next saving throw.
A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal (but the save DC is for a 7th-level spell). When a limited wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay that cost or 300 XP, whichever is more. When a limited wish spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 1,000 gp, you must provide that component.
XP Cost: 300 XP or more (see above).
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Components: V, S, XP
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XP Cost: 300 XP or more (see above).
XP is a listed component, meaning you need to provide it to cast the spell just as you do verbal or somatic components.
And the line at the bottom of the spell description says it requires 300 xp or more, which to me says the spell always costs at least 300 xp. I read the line the body of the spell description as clarifying what happens when the duplicated spell costs less than 300 xp.
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XP is a listed component, meaning you need to provide it to cast the spell just as you do verbal or somatic components.
And the line at the bottom of the spell description says it requires 300 xp or more, which to me says the spell always costs at least 300 xp. I read the line the body of the spell description as clarifying what happens when the duplicated spell costs less than 300 xp.
It has to list XP in the components because XP is sometimes required. It specifically says 300 XP or more (see above). The "see above" part is the part that states it's only necessary to sacrifice XP if the spell your casting originally requires XP. The risk is that the original spell may only require 25 XP, but with this spell, 300 is the price you pay. If it requires more than 300 then that's what you pay. I'm not trying t be difficult, I simply see it very clearly as the way I'm interpreting it. No matter how many times I read it, I don't see it as always costing 300 XP.
I translate the "see above" part the same way I see saves in a spell description. For example, some spells say Will negates; Fort partial (see above) where the Fort save is only applicable if the initial Will save was failed. The "see above" part describes the times when the Fort save is necessary, not as being needed every time the spell is cast. In the case of Limited Wish, I translate the "see above" part to mean the XP cost is only needed when replicating a spell that normally requires an XP sacrifice.
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I believe in cases where the xp is sometimes required, it has a notation on the Components line, (see Gate as an example).
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Here is a thread about casting limited wish:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-316458.html
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Another:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?72042-Limited-Wish-and-XP-Cost
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I believe in cases where the xp is sometimes required, it has a notation on the Components line, (see Gate as an example).
Miracle has a conditional xp cost, that spell description says "5,000 XP (for some uses of the miracle spell; see above)". Seems to me that the wording of limited wish is intended to apply the xp cost to all uses.
Wish has a minimum 5,000 xp cost, so a base cost for limited wish seems to be in line with that.
DM, there's a reference to Sage Advice in Dragon 315 in one of those threads you posted, you look at that?
Also, I think if you're considering scaling xp costs based on spell level, maybe only do that for spells on the caster's class list, but keep it at 300 xp for cross-class spells. Such as when a wizard casts cure light wounds.
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Okay, so all that being said, do we have a final ruling on the XP cost for Limited Wish? Also, what are we doing about Wish? That one seems a bit more clear on the XP cost.
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Sorry, this whole topic section didn't appear appear until this evening.
I suspect that they intend for the XP cost to apply all the time but if this was a legal question Malchia's interpretation would clearly prevail.
I think 300 to use any spell you could ordinarily cast is steep. If you couldn't usually cast it I'd say its fair.
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The Sage Advice from Dragon 315 that Hero mentioned is clear on the matter. It states that any limited wish cast costs a minimum of 300xp.
I would like to alter that down when recreating spells. As suggested before, when recreating spells normally on a caster's spell list..50xp per level of the spell. When casting spells from a different class list, what should the cost be?
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When casting spells from another list, I think the base 300xp + 50xp per spell level (plus any xp cost required by the spell being cast) would be fair.
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When casting spells from another list, I think the base 300xp + 50xp per spell level (plus any xp cost required by the spell being cast) would be fair.
Why should casting spells from another list cost more than the original wording of the spell description? The spell itself already limits what you can and can't cast from different classes and schools of magic. The spirit of the spell is to replicate any one of the the choices on the list equally (such as 6th level Wizard spell, 5th level non-Wizard spell, etc.). Why not simply keep it at 50XP per level regardless of spell? If not that, then perhaps 60XP per non-Wizard/Sorcerer spell, that way the maximum level anyone could cast outside their class would be 5th, and therefore, still 300XP max. I just don't think it should cost more than 300 unless there's normally an additional XP cost like the spell description indicates. That's where the "300XP or more" comes into play.
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My original thought was 60 per level for non-list spells as well; but I thought that was too low.
I like the idea of a base amount plus for non-list spells as Valdis proposed; but perhaps a smaller base line. 100xp + 40 xp level level? That would put the 300xp max at the 5th level spell.
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I think we are starting to get too complex here. I would have a scale for list spells. For non list spells I would make it 300xp or more (if the spell you are casting cost more) just like the spell was intended. For Wish I would do the same thing. I would have a scale for the 7th and 8th level spells and then 5000 or more for non list spells.
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I have added a poll to decide whether we will scale the experience cost of non-list spells.
We appear to be in agreement over the scaling of list spells; 50xp per level for Limited Wish. To keep with the same math structure (300 xp at 6th) Wish would then have to be 625xp to get to the 5000xp for an 8th level spell.
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I have added a poll to decide whether we will scale the experience cost of non-list spells.
We appear to be in agreement over the scaling of list spells; 50xp per level for Limited Wish. To keep with the same math structure (300 xp at 6th) Wish would then have to be 625xp to get to the 5000xp for an 8th level spell.
Bumping this thread since I think it came up last session. Limited Wish costs xp when replicating spells on your list...have to pay for that versatility!