Author Topic: Rule Discussion  (Read 5165 times)

Offline whitesword

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Re: Rule Discussion
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2013, 09:44:34 PM »
Another rules question I thought of that would be worth discussing.  We have a house rule right now that a person is not flat footed if they lose initiative.  Not a rule I agree with but it is already settled so that is fine.  However, this has a consequence that I think we should change.  Normally you cannot use an immediate action if your are flat flooted. This prevents someone from casting an immediate action spell if they lose initiative.  Since we got rid of flat footedness based on initiative, a spellcaster can now cast an immediate action spell even if they lose initiative.  I think being able to cast a spell on your opponents turn when you lose initiative is too powerful and skews the field even more towards casters, which is already a problem to begin with.  I think we should not allow immediate action spells in the 1st round if you lose initiative.  Of course as always the DM could cut this conversation short and make a ruling but I think it is worth discussing.
It should be noted that you are only flat footed for the first round of the encounter when you lose the initial initiative roll. We have modified the rule in several aspects. In addition to not being flat footed we have allowed you to make attacks of opportunity. These changes make losing initiative not such a big deal, however we don't reroll every round, which means the loser is stuck with going latter every round. Changing these rules has probably led to some muddling of action rules in general but on the whole I think they make sense and streamline game play.

With that out of the way, I completely agree with Windblade that you should not be able to use an immediate action, in the first round, when you lose initiative.

Offline Terrorshard

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Re: Rule Discussion
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2013, 10:48:59 AM »
I won't cut the conversation.  We have ruled in the past, specifically for the Suian and Tyrogatorian competitions that because it is a setting where both opponents clearly know they are in a dangerous situation and wouldn't be caught flat footed since they would be aware of danger and alert immediately.

I held that ruling over from the Suian and Tyrogatorian tournaments, and it has already be used in this tournament and it will come up again, so it is not an irrelevant debate.

I agree with Derek.  The combatants are aware of danger and would not make sense to be caught flat footed because they lost the initiative roll.  That makes sense.  Now the question is what the power level of the immediate actions in question.  I would need an example of a few that would tip the scales of power in a match where someone winning initiative over the wizard is crucial.  If You can say...ok that really tips the power scale too much in favor of the wizards then that would be more open for debate.  As a rule question and what makes sense to me, I agree with Derek.

Offline Asinjin

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Re: Rule Discussion
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2013, 11:01:49 AM »
One example of an immediate action is Improved Mirror Image. 

http://dndtools.eu/spells/players-handbook-ii--80/mirror-image-greater--2987/
The hand that rolls the Dice rules the world.

Offline Terrorshard

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Re: Rule Discussion
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2013, 11:18:32 AM »
One example of an immediate action is Improved Mirror Image. 

http://dndtools.eu/spells/players-handbook-ii--80/mirror-image-greater--2987/

That is quite strong for sure.  That is the real debate.

Offline Valdis

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Re: Rule Discussion
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2013, 08:19:42 PM »
I agree that you should not be able to cast an immediate spell in the 1st round if you lose initiative  For those who need more convincing, here are some spells that are cast as immediate actions:
  • Celerity - take a standard action immediately, but be dazed for a round :: so you could lose initiative, cast Celerity and still cast a spell before your opponent can attack.  Yes you are dazed the following round, but the spell you cast can make it so that your opponent can't attack you
  • Greater Celrity - same as above, with the added bonus that you can move after you cast
  • Lesser Celerity - you can move out of range of your opponent.  Yes you are dazed for a round, but you might be able to move out of range of your opponent so that they can't get to you before you recover
  • Halt - cause opponents feat to become stuck to the floor
  • Hesitate - force subject to lose actions
  • Greater Mirror Image - already pointed out
  • Permiable - Turn incorporeal, negating most if not all attacks
  • Stay the hand - Turn opponents attitude to helpful for 1 round.  Makes it so opponent can't attack you
  • Wings of Cover - grants cover from specific attack

Offline Malchia

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Re: Rule Discussion
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2013, 08:27:28 PM »
I'm curious...does anyone have any of these spells or is just a generic discussion for future situations?

Offline Asinjin

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Re: Rule Discussion
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2013, 08:35:29 PM »
Asinjin does.
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Offline Asinjin

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Re: Rule Discussion
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2013, 08:36:23 PM »
The hand that rolls the Dice rules the world.

Offline Asinjin

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Re: Rule Discussion
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2013, 08:38:09 PM »
That's enough people weighing in and in agreement, so going forward, it is disallowed.
The hand that rolls the Dice rules the world.