Habololy Forum
House Rules => Negative Levels => Topic started by: Asinjin on December 01, 2017, 07:55:49 PM
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As Malchia posted before, here is the rule:
Negative Levels
An affected opponent takes a –1 penalty on all skill checks and ability checks, attack rolls, and saving throws, and loses 5 hit points and one effective level or Hit Die (whenever level is used in a die roll or calculation) for each negative level. A spellcaster loses one spell slot of the highest level of spells she can cast and (if applicable) one prepared spell of that level. If she has more than one spell at her highest level, she chooses which she loses. A psionic character loses access to one power per negative level from the highest level of power he can manifest; he also loses a number of power points equal to the cost of that power. If two or more powers fit these criteria, the manifester decides which one becomes inaccessible. This loss persists until the negative level is removed. Negative levels remain until 24 hours have passed or until they are removed with a spell, such as restoration. If a negative level is not removed before 24 hours have passed, the affected creature must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 draining creature’s racial HD + draining creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). On a success, the negative level goes away with no harm to the creature. On a failure, the negative level goes away, but the creature’s level is also reduced by one. A separate saving throw is required for each negative level.
A character with negative levels at least equal to her current level, or drained below 1st level, is instantly slain. Depending on the creature that killed her, she may rise the next night as a monster of that kind. If not, she rises as a wight.
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In theory, when a character gets a negative level, they lose the abilities and bonuses gained from the last level taken. At some point in D&D history, that was how it worked. However, that is a huge pain to calculate, and understandably, no one would take the time or wants to take the time mid fight to do that. The rule is made to somewhat simulate what happens. It works fairly well and is a good compromise so as not to cause lots of wasted time.
At some point, I recall that negative levels did not do hp damage. Looking at the 2nd ed rules, that is in fact the case. It did not do damage, but it did reduce your hp max that you would have gained from whatever levels were lost. I do not want to go back to the 2nd ed rule of determining everything you lost, but I would like to retain that hp rule.
Instead of the 5 hp of damage per negative level, I would like it to be you lose the average amount for your class in hp from your max hp per negative level. So a fighter would lose 6 (5.5 rounded up), etc. Now, this could cause you to lose hp as well, if you were at or near your maximum. This way also evens the effects of the spell, as d4 and d6 characters are more adversely effected; since the amount of damage is based on number of levels lost, and they either never or rarely get 5 per level.
The remaining question is what should happen if your characters maximum drops to 0?
1) It can't, it can only drop to 1
2) It drops to 0 and you are comatose until restored
3) You die
4) You die and are potentially turned undead as you would be if your negative levels equal you levels + HD
Opinions?
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I vote for option 1 or 2. I think you should save 3 and 4 for when you actually lose all of your levels and not just HP.
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When you lose HP, are you also losing your CON modifier for each level lost? If not, then a character would never lose enough HP to be reduced to 0, therefore negating all these options. The only way HP comes into play is in the unfortunate circumstance that Saladien finds himself in since he's already been reduced below 0.
HP are also irrelevant if you lose enough levels because if you're reduced to level 0, you're instantly slain regardless of how many HP you have.
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When you lose HP, are you also losing your CON modifier for each level lost? If not, then a character would never lose enough HP to be reduced to 0, therefore negating all these options. The only way HP comes into play is in the unfortunate circumstance that Saladien finds himself in since he's already been reduced below 0.
HP are also irrelevant if you lose enough levels because if you're reduced to level 0, you're instantly slain regardless of how many HP you have.
In my version, you would not be losing CON modifier as well. However, you could lose enough if you have below average hp, or a below average CON. I understand that this would not happen for most characters, but Asinjin at least would be in trouble.
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I'm glad we're addressing this. I never like the negative level rules as written. Comes down really hard on spell casters (losing more hp than they could receive, spell loss, plus the equivalent of 2 levels of attack bonus)
At some point, I recall that negative levels did not do hp damage.
I think 3.0 energy drain did not come with hp reduction.
Instead of the 5 hp of damage per negative level, I would like it to be you lose the average amount for your class in hp from your max hp per negative level.
I like this idea in concept. Gets tricky with multiclass characters though. For a fighter/wizard, what average would you use?
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I like this idea in concept. Gets tricky with multiclass characters though. For a fighter/wizard, what average would you use?
Take an average, I suppose. d8 for a fighter /rogue. d6 for a cleric/wizard, etc.
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What about attacks? Does losing -1 attack per negative level mean you lose BAB? For example, if you have 10/5 and lose 5 levels, do you lose your second attack or do you simply fight at 5/0?
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I think the only proposal on the table is to change it for HP and to keep everything else as it is written. If that is the case then it is a - to your your attack and not to your BAB so you would keep the same number of attacks.
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I think the only proposal on the table is to change it for HP and to keep everything else as it is written. If that is the case then it is a - to your your attack and not to your BAB so you would keep the same number of attacks.
Yeah, that's how I understand it too.
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Take an average, I suppose. d8 for a fighter /rogue. d6 for a cleric/wizard, etc.
I think that's kind of messy. Not all characters evenly distribute levels between classes, e.g., Wizard 1/ Fighter 9.
How about this instead: use the character's actual average hp per level. So HP/level = (normal max hp)/(total character level), and use that as the deduct for each negative level. Easy math. No finagling what an average HD should be. Customized to an individual. Doesn't over-penalize low HD classes.
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Yeah, that's how I understand it too.
I agree.
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I think that's kind of messy. Not all characters evenly distribute levels between classes, e.g., Wizard 1/ Fighter 9.
How about this instead: use the character's actual average hp per level. So HP/level = (normal max hp)/(total character level), and use that as the deduct for each negative level. Easy math. No finagling what an average HD should be. Customized to an individual. Doesn't over-penalize low HD classes.
I am fine with that as well if that is what everyone prefers.
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That is fine but we still need to discuss if it kills you.
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I don’t think negative levels should kill you unless they reduce your level to 0 or less.
This shouldn’t be an issue if you use the average hp reduction I proposed and round down. You should hit level 0 before hp are reduced to 0.
For instance, Natsu is 9th level and has 30 hp, so average hp/level = 3.33, or 3 when you round down. If he takes 8 negative levels, he will be at 6 hp and level 1. If he takes 1 more negative level he drops to level 0 and dies.
I think this removes the scenario of negative levels dropping you to 0 hp but not to level 0.
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I don’t think negative levels should kill you unless they reduce your level to 0 or less.
This shouldn’t be an issue if you use the average hp reduction I proposed and round down. You should hit level 0 before hp are reduced to 0.
For instance, Natsu is 9th level and has 30 hp, so average hp/level = 3.33, or 3 when you round down. If he takes 8 negative levels, he will be at 6 hp and level 1. If he takes 1 more negative level he drops to level 0 and dies.
I think this removes the scenario of negative levels dropping you to 0 hp but not to level 0.
I think the issue is when you lose levels after you've already lost HP. The HP formula you proposed is a good one, but in Saladien's case, he lost 3 levels when he was at negative HP which reduced him below -10. Does he die, does he turn into a wight or wraith, does he simply fall unconscious? The outcome of this discussion will determine whether Windblade needs a new character next week.
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And just to reiterate I am more interested in the rule going forward then in whether Saladien lives. I just don't want anyone to think this is to save Saladien. There are two scenarios that are worked out already in regards to this situation. One in which he lives and one he which he dies. The one where he dies might be even more interesting to me then the one where he lives but I am happy with either outcome. That being said, this is more about keeping the feel of Habololy that I have been playing in for the last 25 years and sometimes that means replicating some second edition ideas. So I personally don't care how the HP is figured out but I am more interested in what happens when you take damage from the spell. I would like to have level drain kill a character only if they get reduced to zero level from the drain. Level drain HP reduction should only happen because your level lowered but this should never be the direct cause of death (or even unconsciousness) So what ever HP reduction rule we decide then HP reduction should only take you to your max HP. For example if you are at 60/60 and you you lose 20 max HP then you should be reduced to 40/40. If the same character is at 35/60 and take damage from the same spell and lose 20 max HP then he should be at 35/40. So the way I see it is that you only take damage if you are above the new max HP after the spell resolves. The level drain should only lower your max HP and not actually do damage.
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I think the issue is when you lose levels after you've already lost HP. The HP formula you proposed is a good one, but in Saladien's case, he lost 3 levels when he was at negative HP which reduced him below -10. Does he die, does he turn into a wight or wraith, does he simply fall unconscious? The outcome of this discussion will determine whether Windblade needs a new character next week.
Yes that is the issue at the heart of this.
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So the way I see it is that you only take damage if you are above the new max HP after the spell resolves. The level drain should only lower your max HP and not actually do damage.
This is what I was proposing.
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This is what I was proposing.
Yeah I see that but I just wanted to clarify what happens if you have lost some HP already.
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Right now, we are looking at changing the rules so that you lose max hp/level for each negative level. If you reach 0 levels, you die. This lose comes off the top of your hp, and you only lose current hp if your new max drops below your current total.
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Right now, we are looking at changing the rules so that you lose max hp/level for each negative level. If you reach 0 levels, you die. This lose comes off the top of your hp, and you only lose current hp if your new max drops below your current total.
In this scenario, Saladien is still alive and doesn't need to make a new character...at least not yet. If this fight continues the way its been going, we may all be writing up new characters.
Haas, are you sure you want us to activate that token and summon you here?
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Haas, are you sure you want us to activate that token and summon you here?
He doesn't have a choice does he :P
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He doesn't have a choice does he :P
Excellent point. Who has this token in their possession?
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we've got our streams crossed!!!!!
Take this back to the correct thread!
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Right now, we are looking at changing the rules so that you lose max hp/level for each negative level. If you reach 0 levels, you die. This lose comes off the top of your hp, and you only lose current hp if your new max drops below your current total.
Do you mean average hp/level rather than max?
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Yes average
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So final statement:
- You lose your average HP per level for your classes
- -x to saves
- -x to attacks (doesn't effect number of attacks)
- -x to skill checks
- looses spell / power at highest slot
- slain if looses more levels then you have.
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So final statement:
- You lose your average HP per level for your classes
- -x to saves
- -x to attacks (doesn't effect number of attacks)
- -x to skill checks
- looses spell / power at highest slot
- slain if looses more levels then you have.
-x to ability checks
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If you lose levels and manage to overcome an encounter, do you gain XP as a lower level character or is the XP still calculated based on your pre-drain levels?
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If you lose levels and manage to overcome an encounter, do you gain XP as a lower level character or is the XP still calculated based on your pre-drain levels?
Pre Drain levels.
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maybe final:
You lose your average HP per level for your classes
-x to saves
-x to attacks (doesn't effect number of attacks)
-x to skill checks
-x to ability checks
looses spell / power at highest slot
slain if looses more levels then you have.
no super cool bonus xp for defeating dragons at a lower level