Habololy Forum
Habololy Books => Magic of Habololy => Topic started by: Asinjin on December 19, 2016, 01:33:54 PM
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Should the spell, when it is enhanced by a metamagic feat that adds another effect still ignore magic resistance?
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Should the spell, when it is enhanced by a metamagic feat that adds another effect still ignore magic resistance?
Yes
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Should the spell, when it is enhanced by a metamagic feat that adds another effect still ignore magic resistance?
Might make it too powerful.
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Might make it too powerful.
That's the whole point of adding metamagic. Why be penalized for enhancing a spell? A fortified spell should be more powerful, not weaker. Besides, this is a magic missile we're talking about. Granted, it's very potent for a low level spell, but it's easily thwarted by a 1st level shield spell or a brooch of shielding.
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The whole idea about magic missile ignoring SR comes from the fact that magic missiles on Habololy are considering pure magic and nothing can stop them because it is pure untouched magic. Therefore we decided no SR. Once you add in metamagic feats especially ones that entangle and enervate then you disrupt this "pure magic" and therefore SR should now apply. Metamagic feats would not really be "down powered" on a magic missile they would just work as normal per the rules of the game. We would only apply the "habololy rule" to normal magic missiles for the reason I stated above. Asinjin correct me if I am wrong about the whole reason we made magic missiles ignore SR to begin with.
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By that logic, any spell that ignores SR and is enhanced by a metamagic feat should follow the same rule.
The Orb of X line of spells ignore SR because they create a bit of non-magical element rather than a magical energy effect (like most evocation spells). Does a maximized Orb of X make it susceptible to SR?
This is a slippery slope. I vote no.
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It would only apply to magic missile because we modified magical missile from its original state anyway so I don't think there is a slippery slope at all. There were be no reason to even look at any other spells. Also most spells that ignore SR have nothing to do with the theory that is presented for magic missiles. The spells that ignore SR usually are conjuration and conjuration magic typically opens some sort of portal gate etc bringing a real object into being. Therefore when you are effected by the real object there would be no SR.
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I would not want to divide out spells, but I think you could make a case for certain metamagic feats altering all spells that normally ignore SR.
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Still up for debate: should magic missile and other spells that normally ignore SR be subject to SR if a 'fancy' metamagic feat is applied. Examples of these metamagic feats are:
- Exploding
- Entangling
- Fell Drain
- Forceful
Another possibility is that we add to these feats that a target's SR must be overcome for the purpose of the feat effect only.
So the choices are:
1 - no change, these feats and the spell they are attached to ignore SR
2 - if a spell that ignores SR has one of these feats applied, the target's SR applies to the spell and feat
3 - a spell that has one of these feats atteched ignores SR, but the feat attached must overcome SR to apply
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Still up for debate: should magic missile and other spells that normally ignore SR be subject to SR if a 'fancy' metamagic feat is applied. Examples of these metamagic feats are:
- Exploding
- Entangling
- Fell Drain
- Forceful
Another possibility is that we add to these feats that a target's SR must be overcome for the purpose of the feat effect only.
So the choices are:
1 - no change, these feats and the spell they are attached to ignore SR
2 - if a spell that ignores SR has one of these feats applied, the target's SR applies to the spell and feat
3 - a spell that has one of these feats atteched ignores SR, but the feat attached must overcome SR to apply
I vote for choice #1.
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I vote for choice #1.
+1
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I vote for choice #1.
+1
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I vote #3.
Still looking for Terrorshard, Whitesword, Windblade, and Zunder to vote.
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3 - a spell that has one of these feats atteched ignores SR, but the feat attached must overcome SR to apply
If you go this route I think it also should apply to any metamagic feat. For instance, to get maximize to apply you need to make an SR check otherwise it just deals normal damage. Increased damage output is no different than a debuffing effect.
I'm still voting for #1.
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I vote 3.
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Whitesword, Zunder, Terrorshard?
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I vote 3.
I honestly don't care if it is 2 or 3. I think the vote is if we should change or not. Then if we decide to change we could then vote on what the change would be.
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I honestly don't care if it is 2 or 3. I think the vote is if we should change or not. Then if we decide to change we could then vote on what the change would be.
Currently at 2 to change and 3 to remain.
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I'm going to make an alternative suggestion: any meta magic feat that alters or add to the nature of the spell's damage type eliminates the no SR. So burning MM get SR but maximized, extended etc. still no SR. I would apply this across the board because SR is comparatively rare and pretty easily overcome.
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I'll go off the beaten path here and say I don't really like that MM bypasses SR at all. So I'll vote for 2 or 3
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I'm going to make an alternative suggestion: any meta magic feat that alters or add to the nature of the spell's damage type eliminates the no SR. So burning MM get SR but maximized, extended etc. still no SR. I would apply this across the board because SR is comparatively rare and pretty easily overcome.
I really like Whiteswords suggestion and it appears he is voting for a change also. I was thinking something along those lines also but didn't want to make the rule to complex. However, it would only be for magic missile so I don't think it would be too overwhelming.
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We are currently at 4 to change and 3 to keep. Zunder remains, and if it is a tie then I will have Master Po break the tie.
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Just to be clear, are we voting on a change to magic missile or any spell that bypasses SR?
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Just to be clear, are we voting on a change to magic missile or any spell that bypasses SR?
We are voting to make a change, if yes, then we can debate exactly how to change it.
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3
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The vote to change has won, so now we must decide how to change the rule.
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Here are the possible options for change:
1 - Magic Missile no longer ignores SR and follows the standard d20 rules
2 - Any meta magic feat that alters or add to the nature of the spell's damage type eliminates the no SR. So burning MM get SR but maximized, extended etc. still no SR. I would apply this across the board because SR is comparatively rare and pretty easily overcome.
3 - A spell that has one of the 'fancy' feats attached ignores SR, but the feat attached must overcome SR to apply
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I like 2
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I vote #1
I think #2 or 3, if you go that way, should apply unilaterally across all metamagic feats. You are modifying the base spell regardless of what the final product is. It's also cleaner than trying to divvy up which feats this applies to. I also don't think SR is easy to overcome until high levels. For a 6th level caster, it sucks - as demonstrated by Drax's 0% success rate vs the deva.
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I vote #1
I think #2 or 3, if you go that way, should apply unilaterally across all metamagic feats. You are modifying the base spell regardless of what the final product is. It's also cleaner than trying to divvy up which feats this applies to. I also don't think SR is easy to overcome until high levels. For a 6th level caster, it sucks - as demonstrated by Drax's 0% success rate vs the deva.
I disagree, I don't think divvying the feats out would be hard.
Also, I vote #2.
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#2
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Why the focus only on "fancy" metamagic feats? Is it a balance issue?
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For me it is more of a RPing and flavor of the game issue. It is recreating what MM was in second edition but not sure about everyone else.
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2
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Here are the possible options for change:
1 - Magic Missile no longer ignores SR and follows the standard d20 rules Hero
2 - Any meta magic feat that alters or add to the nature of the spell's damage type eliminates the no SR. So burning MM get SR but maximized, extended etc. still no SR. I would apply this across the board because SR is comparatively rare and pretty easily overcome. Whitesword, Valdis, Asinjin, Windblade
3 - A spell that has one of the 'fancy' feats attached ignores SR, but the feat attached must overcome SR to apply
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When you say "applied across the board," are you referring to spells that don't normally have SR? Hero brought this up and I feel compelled to reiterate. This is a very important piece of information. For example, someone casts an Orb of Force and adds Fell Drain to it. Orb of Force has no SR and no save. Are you suggesting that SR be added to the spell because Fell Drain was added?
I don't agree with changing Magic Missile, but will go along with whatever the consensus is; primarily because it was changed from the original rules to begin with. House rules are always DM's prerogative. That being said, I hope the train of thought here is not to alter every pre-existing spell to add SR just because someone adds metamagic to it.
Besides, how does one determine what constitutes a "normal" metamagic feat from a "fancy" one?
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When you say "applied across the board," are you referring to spells that don't normally have SR? Hero brought this up and I feel compelled to reiterate. This is a very important piece of information. For example, someone casts an Orb of Force and adds Fell Drain to it. Orb of Force has no SR and no save. Are you suggesting that SR be added to the spell because Fell Drain was added?
I don't agree with changing Magic Missile, but will go along with whatever the consensus is; primarily because it was changed from the original rules to begin with. House rules are always DM's prerogative. That being said, I hope the train of thought here is not to alter every pre-existing spell to add SR just because someone adds metamagic to it.
Besides, how does one determine what constitutes a "normal" metamagic feat from a "fancy" one?
Whitesword's description of 'fancy' worked well enough. Here would be the list of feats that it would apply to, subject to debate:
Deafening Spell
Entangling Spell
Explosive Spell
Fell Animate
Fell Drain
Fell Frighten
Fell Weaken
Forceful Spell
Poison Spell
Reaping Spell
Slime Spell
Wounding Spell
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Whitesword's description of 'fancy' worked well enough. Here would be the list of feats that it would apply to, subject to debate:
Deafening Spell
Entangling Spell
Explosive Spell
Fell Animate
Fell Drain
Fell Frighten
Fell Weaken
Forceful Spell
Poison Spell
Reaping Spell
Slime Spell
Wounding Spell
That answers what feats you had in mind, but doesn't answer the question of whether or not you plan to add SR to spells that don't normally have it.
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Whitesword's description of 'fancy' worked well enough. Here would be the list of feats that it would apply to, subject to debate:
Deafening Spell
Entangling Spell
Explosive Spell
Fell Animate
Fell Drain
Fell Frighten
Fell Weaken
Forceful Spell
Poison Spell
Reaping Spell
Slime Spell
Wounding Spell
Why just these and not maximize, extend, etc? I sty ill don't understand the reason to treat them differently.
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Why just these and not maximize, extend, etc? I sty ill don't understand the reason to treat them differently.
Whitesword gives an explanation a few pages back, but the idea is that only feats that have an effect different from the original spell.
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Whitesword gives an explanation a few pages back, but the idea is that only feats that have an effect different from the original spell.
I saw that, but it's not really an explanation as to why we should treat them differently than empower, maximize, etc.
I think adding +50% more damage from empowermagic missiles or creating a second orb of X via twin spell would fall under adding to or altering a spell effect to the point that it is different from the original spell.
Certainly energy substitution and energy admixture fall into the same category.. Transdimensional spell too.
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I saw that, but it's not really an explanation as to why we should treat them differently than empower, maximize, etc.
I think adding +50% more damage from empowermagic missiles or creating a second orb of X via twin spell would fall under adding to or altering a spell effect to the point that it is different from the original spell.
Certainly energy substitution and energy admixture fall into the same category.. Transdimensional spell too.
Brings me back to why we should just leave everything alone.
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I don't think there is a clear cut answer to what you are looking for it is more of a flavor of trying to recreate 2nd edition MM. At least to my understanding on habololy MM are made from "pure"' arcane magic. This is the same stuff that comes out of the crevices in Home. It is pure magic and nothing stops it. Altering duration, distance, damage etc doesn't change the fact that is pure arcane magic. However, adding fire or entangling to the spell gives it another magic energy source and taints the pure arcane magic. In theory we could go through all the spells and decide which other spell might fall into the pure magic category but MM is such an I iconic spell that it needs to be done here to keep up with the tradition of the spell. At least this is how I see it.
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I don't think there is a clear cut answer to what you are looking for it is more of a flavor of trying to recreate 2nd edition MM. At least to my understanding on habololy MM are made from "pure"' arcane magic. This is the same stuff that comes out of the crevices in Home. It is pure magic and nothing stops it. Altering duration, distance, damage etc doesn't change the fact that is pure arcane magic. However, adding fire or entangling to the spell gives it another magic energy source and taints the pure arcane magic. In theory we could go through all the spells and decide which other spell might fall into the pure magic category but MM is such an I iconic spell that it needs to be done here to keep up with the tradition of the spell. At least this is how I see it.
I understand your point regarding MM, but this thread has evolved to include all Metamagic feats and all spells. That's the part that concerns me. One could argue that all magic is pure magic. One could also argue that divine magic isn't susceptible to these rules because they are the will of the gods manifested into spells. If a deity wishes a spell to be entangling and fell draining, who are we as mortals to say otherwise?
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I would only vote for 2 if it applied to MM. I didn't realize it was across the board effecting other spells. I wouldn't make these changes to any other spells at this point expect MM. So I guess I might consider one of the other voting options if 2 applies to all spells and not just MM.
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I would only vote for 2 if it applied to MM. I didn't realize it was across the board effecting other spells. I wouldn't make these changes to any other spells at this point expect MM. So I guess I might consider one of the other voting options if 2 applies to all spells and not just MM.
Yes, at some point during this thread, the idea that this rule would apply to all spells that ignore SR came into play.
Since there is less consensus, I would say that the new rule would only apply to magic missile and its other versions Major Missile, Chain Missile, etc.
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Yes, at some point during this thread, the idea that this rule would apply to all spells that ignore SR came into play.
Since there is less consensus, I would say that the new rule would only apply to magic missile and its other versions Major Missile, Chain Missile, etc.
Chain Missile works like MM, but Force Missile doesn't have SR normally. Would you add it to that spell if fancy Metamagic feats are used when cast?
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Chain Missile works like MM, but Force Missile doesn't have SR normally. Would you add it to that spell if fancy Metamagic feats are used when cast?
I would include Force Missile.
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I wouldnt include force missile because then why not include other force spells. I would limited it to chabe n mm, mm, and major missile.
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I wouldnt include force missile because then why not include other force spells. I would limited it to chabe n mm, mm, and major missile.
Most other force spells are SR: yes. If I remember correctly. Except orb of force. Because a non-magical ball of force makes complete sense to WotC.
I think that if we are committed to making a change, for simplicity's sake we should limit it to any metamagic feat applied only to magic missile.
I am still of the opinion that we are creating an unnecessary rule.
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I am still of the opinion that we are creating an unnecessary rule.
Agreed
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We are going to take a step back here and using what we have learned from the discussion so far start at the beginning.
The only issue is, how do we make it so that we don't overpower magic missile by making it ignore SR, which is what it does traditionally in our campaigns.
So, keeping in mind that magic missile will continue to ignore SR in its basic form at least AND that we need to add something to down power the Fell, Entangling, Twinned Magic Missile possibility.
Brainstorm.
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We are going to take a step back here and using what we have learned from the discussion so far start at the beginning.
The only issue is, how do we make it so that we don't overpower magic missile by making it ignore SR, which is what it does traditionally in our campaigns.
So, keeping in mind that magic missile will continue to ignore SR in its basic form at least AND that we need to add something to down power the Fell, Entangling, Twinned Magic Missile possibility.
Brainstorm.
So, can we just say that using any of those meta feat on MM only, will allow it to be resisted?
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So, can we just say that using any of those meta feat on MM only, will allow it to be resisted?
That is one option. To say that adding any 'fancy' feat to magic missile (and again its higher level versions as well) spoils the pure magic of the spell that allows it to ignore SR.
That would require us to define magic missile and its greater versions in a list (not hard), and to define the 'fancy' metamagic feats (mostly done).
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We are going to take a step back here and using what we have learned from the discussion so far start at the beginning.
The only issue is, how do we make it so that we don't overpower magic missile by making it ignore SR, which is what it does traditionally in our campaigns.
So, keeping in mind that magic missile will continue to ignore SR in its basic form at least AND that we need to add something to down power the Fell, Entangling, Twinned Magic Missile possibility.
Brainstorm.
So it is a question of power, and not just a flavor issue?
Keep in mind that a Fell Drain (+2) Entangling (+2) Twinned (+4) Magic Missile is a 9th level spell slot, and the metamagic effects only apply to the base spell (not the twin). So against a single opponent, that spell would deal 1 negative level, entangle for 1 round, dish out 10d4+5 points of damage, and auto-hit; I could think of many other more useful things to do with a 9th level spell slot. A bit better against multiple opponents since every target is hit with the negative level and entangle, but I don't think it's broken (by the time you can do this, 1 negative level isn't that big of a deal).
You could apply all of those feats to a "lesser orb" spell to bypass SR at the cost of a touch attack (generally not an issue). From a power perspective, I don't see the need to "fix" magic missile since there are other options that could be taken advantage of in it's place.
From a magic missile flavor perspective, I struggle with the concept of only applying the SR to "fancy" metamagic. Regardless of the effect, ANY metamagic feat alters the nature of the spell, and therefore should be treated the same across the board.
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Yes but the "fancy" ones alter the substance of MM. Whereas the other make the pure magic of MM even stronger at least that is how I see it. When it comes to flavor there really isn't a right or wrong answer on how you can view. I think this one ultimately comes down to the DM and how he sees the flavor of this spell.
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I'm starting up this conversation again. With our recent discussions surrounding Magic Missile cannons and wands, it feels relevant.
So far, we all agree that Magic Missile and all it's variants (Chain Missile and Force Missiles) ignore SR on Habololy. That being the case, the question is should it regain SR if altered by metamagic.
I don't see any reason why it would need to be changed. Metamagic feats change the difficulty of the spell, so having the missiles continue to ignore SR seems a mute point. If one were to Maximize (+3 slots) and Empower (+2 slots) a Magic Missile, it becomes a 6th level spell. I can think of a lot more powerful 6th level spells that deal a whole lot more damage and some even have no SR or save. That's only 37.5 points of damage. 75 if Twinned which then becomes a 10th level slot. We're talking epic level here. If you're willing and able to use a higher spell slot to modify a Magic Missile, I think the caster should be rewarded with no SR. That's the whole point of the spell. It's 1st level for a reason. It's a staple of arcane spellcasting that has lasted through generations of casters. Casters take the spell early on in the careers, so it stands to reason they'd be able to learn ways of modifying it over time with metamagic feats.
The system has it's own way of preventing too much from happening to Magic Missiles by capping them at 5d4+5. Chain Missiles cap at 10d4+10 and Force Missiles don't cap, but it's a 4th level spell, so there's only so much you can do to beef it up. Plus, you only gain new missiles every 4 caster levels. We're looking at 10d6 as a 20th level caster for Force Missiles.
So, the built in trade off is auto-hit for less damage. The bonus for no save, no SR spells like the Orbs is higher damage, but you have to hit a ranged touch AC. You also gain the potential benefit of a critical hit with a roll of 20, whereas you don't get that benefit from Magic Missiles. It's similar to the shotgun rule. You auto hit, but there no chance of crit and you can't avoid it unless you happen to be a Modern Ranger with Clicker Evasion.
Bottom line: Magic Missile and it's sister spells should remain no save, no SR on Habololy regardless of metamagic enhancement.